Certainly Didn’t Expect to See that at the National.

[oldjudge]

Phil-I’m not saying that Bill did nothing wrong, he did and he paid the price for it. All I am saying is that now that he paid the price he should be free to live a happy and productive life. I wasn’t at the National but I doubt that Bill came hat in hand begging forgiveness. He probably came to visit with some old friends. If I was there I would have loved to have seen him.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Phil-I’m not saying that Bill did nothing wrong, he did and he paid the price for it. All I am saying is that now that he paid the price he should be free to live a happy and productive life. I wasn’t at the National but I doubt that Bill came hat in hand begging forgiveness. He probably came to visit with some old friends. If I was there I would have loved to have seen him.

No doubt, it's clear that he has made friends over the course of his involvement in this hobby. I've also had friends that I have had to distance from myself and my family due to their behavior. Paying the price should actually be making all of his victims whole, not just the Feds, I would posit he's halfway home but that 2nd half is the hardest part. To be clear, he sacrificed his family for greed, not sure he could ever make that up to his children. Think about the thought process of a man who would do that, he made that decision all by himself as an adult male with a family when no one was looking, that's a big moral leap that reveals a mans character.

[Mozzie22]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Phil-I’m not saying that Bill did nothing wrong, he did and he paid the price for it. All I am saying is that now that he paid the price he should be free to live a happy and productive life. I wasn’t at the National but I doubt that Bill came hat in hand begging forgiveness. He probably came to visit with some old friends. If I was there I would have loved to have seen him.

So you'd have no problem with him getting back into the card business if he decided to?

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Mozzie22

So you'd have no problem with him getting back into the card business if he decided to?

If there is nothing legally in place that precludes him from doing this then I would have no problem with it. That said, I don’t think it would happen.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

If there is nothing legally in place that precludes him from doing this then I would have no problem with it. That said, I don’t think it would happen.

It won't happen, you're right, and it shouldn't IMO, but it would be interesting hypothetically to see what happened if it did. I suspect we as a hobby are so much like crack addicts that if he had material, he would do just fine.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It won't happen, you're right, and it shouldn't IMO, but it would be interesting hypothetically to see what happened if it did. I suspect we as a hobby are so much like crack addicts that if he had material, he would do just fine.

I suspect you're correct. Furthermore, he would probably do well even if that material was altered yet numerically graded by PSA.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I suspect you're correct. Furthermore, he would probably do well even if that material was altered yet numerically graded by PSA.

Better, I suspect, that's how this hobby seems to work.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Better, I suspect, that's how this hobby seems to work.

I am often reminded of three things you've written here at various times. Pardon me for paraphrasing:

• Stuff trumps all
• People collect flips, not cards
• The registry is a powerful drug

Sadly, a large segment of the hobby has turned cardboard and plastic into little more than a d*** measuring contest. It seems, at times, the cards have become (or always were) secondary for some people.

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It won't happen, you're right, and it shouldn't IMO, but it would be interesting hypothetically to see what happened if it did. I suspect we as a hobby are so much like crack addicts that if he had material, he would do just fine.

We don't need hypothetical, we have a history of examples of what would happen. He would send out a catalog, people would say "I can't believe anyone consigned to him", many people would publicly say "I won't bid with him", and then the auction would do fine. Within five years he would be at least in the top ten in size and 90% of the people wouldn't think twice about bidding with him, and 50% of the people would think he is one of the "good guys" and publicly defend him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

We don't need hypothetical, we have a history of examples of what would happen. He would send out a catalog, people would say "I can't believe anyone consigned to him", many people would publicly say "I won't bid with him", and then the auction would do fine. Within five years he would be at least in the top ten in size and 90% of the people wouldn't think twice about bidding with him, and 50% of the people would think he is one of the "good guys" and publicly defend him.

Hmmm... I don't disagree with your scenario at all, but just in terms of history, how many people do we have who have been convicted of hobby fraud and served time then come back?

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hmmm... I don't disagree with your scenario at all, but just in terms of history, how many people do we have who have been convicted of hobby fraud and served time then come back?

There probably isn't someone who exactly meets that criteria however there are enough similar situations in terms of hobby frauds and serving time to provide guidance. Convictions might not have been for hobby fraud and hobby frauds might not have been convicted.