Goldin Vault

[Johnny630]

I’ve been saying it since it started the vault is a brokerage/trading account for your slabs. I don’t want any part of it. I want the cards in my possession for the long term. It’s also a easy way for the AH to keep you as their customer, not venturing to other AH’s.

It’s also about leverage buying with cards as collateral etc. They attract customers/investors with tax shelter marketing well guess what it only saves you from sales tax, not profit on gain. Wait till you get that check your gonna have to claim it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I’ve been saying it since it started the vault is a brokerage/trading account for your slabs. I don’t want any part of it. I want the cards in my possession for the long term. It’s also a easy way for the AH to keep you as their customer, not venturing to other AH’s.

It’s also about leverage buying with cards as collateral etc. They attract customers/investors with tax shelter marketing well guess what it only saves you from sales tax, not profit on gain. Wait till you get that check your gonna have to claim it.

Great observation, though I initially assumed the main focus of the "vault" concept was precipitated by the sales tax loophole idea, and to then use that to channel and retain more business for the AH. Just look at the timing and creation of the concept relative to the S Dakota Vs. Wayfair case decision by the Supreme Court, and the fact that the original PWCC "vault" operation was specifically set up in one of the few states without a sales tax.

The idea of using it like a brokerage account is I think possibly more a function of the impact the pandemic has had on the hobby overall, and the unbelievable surge in prices that have occured as a result. That impact didn't start till around two years after the Supreme Court decision so, would assume it was less of a factor in creating the "vault" concept, at least initially. If nothing else, the pandemic impact has radically quickened the additional use of such an operation as a type of brokerage account, and possibly even supplanted the original main concept of using it as a sales tax loophole. How else do you explain the $100M in "vault" submissions PWCC allegedly got during the National? The sales tax savings only occurs if the items are purchased online and shipped directly to a location in a state with no sales tax, not hand delivered by the owner while in Chicago.

What will be extremely interesting is to see how this "vault" concept grows, and possibly morphs, in the future. The fact that Goldin took on the concept that PWCC originally started already tells you that others in the hobby have recognized this as a possible way to grow and make more money in the business. So does that mean other AHs may start getting into the "vault" business to compete and maintain their current clientele and standing, or that entirely separate companies that don't even sell or auction off cards could jump into the "vault" business and end up being like financial advisors, only dealing in cards? Who knows at this point where this could go. I would think a lot of this will be predicated on how the card market reacts and goes as we eventually get out of the major effects from the pandemic and back into more normal times, whatever the new normal ends up being post pandemic. If the card markets end up severely tanking post pandemic, and we see major price drops in the high end market across the board, I think that would negatively impact the use of "vaults" other than for those still looking to take advantage of the sales tax loophole. But bcause of all the the changes and infusion of new money and investors in the "hobby", I think there is already too much invested by those new people to just let things fail apart and bottom out. An adjustment to the market and correction of prices for a time, yes can see that, but would also suspect it to have greater impact on the modern card side of things. I would think the vintage market will continue to do well and maintain, if not actually seeing increases overral as collectors/investors may move from modern to vintage at some time. At least for the foreseeable future. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by BobC

Great observation, though I initially assumed the main focus of the "vault" concept was precipitated by the sales tax loophole idea, and to then use that to channel and retain more business for the AH. Just look at the timing and creation of the concept relative to the S Dakota Vs. Wayfair case decision by the Supreme Court, and the fact that the original PWCC "vault" operation was specifically set up in one of the few states without a sales tax.

The idea of using it like a brokerage account is I think possibly more a function of the impact the pandemic has had on the hobby overall, and the unbelievable surge in prices that have occured as a result. That impact didn't start till around two years after the Supreme Court decision so, would assume it was less of a factor in creating the "vault" concept, at least initially. If nothing else, the pandemic impact has radically quickened the additional use of such an operation as a type of brokerage account, and possibly even supplanted the original main concept of using it as a sales tax loophole. How else do you explain the $100M in "vault" submissions PWCC allegedly got during the National? The sales tax savings only occurs if the items are purchased online and shipped directly to a location in a state with no sales tax, not hand delivered by the owner while in Chicago.

What will be extremely interesting is to see how this "vault" concept grows, and possibly morphs, in the future. The fact that Goldin took on the concept that PWCC originally started already tells you that others in the hobby have recognized this as a possible way to grow and make more money in the business. So does that mean other AHs may start getting into the "vault" business to compete and maintain their current clientele and standing, or that entirely separate companies that don't even sell or auction off cards could jump into the "vault" business and end up being like financial advisors, only dealing in cards? Who knows at this point where this could go. I would think a lot of this will be predicated on how the card market reacts and goes as we eventually get out of the major effects from the pandemic and back into more normal times, whatever the new normal ends up being post pandemic. If the card markets end up severely tanking post pandemic, and we see major price drops in the high end market across the board, I think that would negatively impact the use of "vaults" other than for those still looking to take advantage of the sales tax loophole. But bcause of all the the changes and infusion of new money and investors in the "hobby", I think there is already too much invested by those new people to just let things fail apart and bottom out. An adjustment to the market and correction of prices for a time, yes can see that, but would also suspect it to have greater impact on the modern card side of things. I would think the vintage market will continue to do well and maintain, if not actually seeing increases overral as collectors/investors may move from modern to vintage at some time. At least for the foreseeable future. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

+1

Spot On.

[Peter_Spaeth]

First thread about the vault I think.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=vault

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

First thread about the vault I think.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=vault

Nevermind, my bad. I thought you were referring to this current thread being the first about the "vault".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Nevermind, my bad. I thought you were referring to this current thread being the first about the "vault".

As I recall sales tax was certainly a big emphasis of his initial pitch.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I recall sales tax was certainly a big emphasis of his initial pitch.

Oh yes, I believe that was the entire pitch. Definitely done with the then recent Supreme Court case in mind. This new twist is definitely due to the effects of the pandemic. Got to give them credit, this could be huge for them being the first to do something like this. Let's see how quickly Goldin adopts this loan/advance idea. If PWCC really got $100M in submissions at the National, the rest of the industry is already buzzing.