1919 Ruth vs 2021 Ohtani

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I recall correctly Wilt played against Russell, Thurmond, Bellamy, Beatty, and for his last 5 years, Alcindor. 6 2 white guys indeed.

Yeah, the "he played against short guys" thing has definitely been exaggerated over the years. What's definitely true is that the players he played against were nowhere near as good as later generations. Wilt's rebound statistics are significantly inflated because teams played at a breakneck pace while also shooting poorly. For example, in 1960/61 when Wilt set the rebounding record, teams took an average of 109.4 shots per game - EACH - while shooting 41.5% from the floor. That's an average of 128 rebounds per game for players to grab. Compare that to 2020/21 where teams took 88.4 shots per game while shooting 46.6% from the floor. That's an average of 94 rebounds per game - 34 fewer. So, yeah, your rebounding numbers are going to be higher if guys are throwing up 2.67 missed shots per minute.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Yeah, the "he played against short guys" thing has definitely been exaggerated over the years. What's definitely true is that the players he played against were nowhere near as good as later generations. Wilt's rebound statistics are significantly inflated because teams played at a breakneck pace while also shooting poorly. For example, in 1960/61 when Wilt set the rebounding record, teams took an average of 109.4 shots per game - EACH - while shooting 41.5% from the floor. That's an average of 128 rebounds per game for players to grab. Compare that to 2020/21 where teams took 88.4 shots per game while shooting 46.6% from the floor. That's an average of 94 rebounds per game - 34 fewer. So, yeah, your rebounding numbers are going to be higher if guys are throwing up 2.67 missed shots per minute.

That is just your opinion. I disagree. Playing 9 or 10 games against Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain faced tougher competition than any modern player. Teams in the 60s shot lower percentages because teams actually played defense.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is just your opinion. I disagree. Playing 9 or 10 games against Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain faced tougher competition than any modern player. Teams in the 60s shot lower percentages because teams actually played defense.

And when Russell left, there was Lew. And Hayes.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is just your opinion. I disagree. Playing 9 or 10 games against Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain faced tougher competition than any modern player. Teams in the 60s shot lower percentages because teams actually played defense.

This is a hilarious take. Teams in the 60s shot lower percentages because they sucked at shooting. Go watch some film. Half these guys look like my wife when she shoots a basketball. It's a complete joke. Russell and Wilt averaged an estimated 8-9 blocked shots per game. It's not because they were immortals, it's because they were blocking shots from YMCA guys. Olajuwan probably would have blocked 15 shots per game back then.

Here's my hot take - Bill Russell is probably the single most overrated athlete of any sport in any era.

I'm not saying Bill Russell sucked. He was very good. Possibly top 20 all-time in my book. But some people talk about him like he's the GOAT, which is completely ridiculous. Wilt was by FAR the better player and it wasn't even close.

[Snowman]

Perhaps the basketball conversation belongs in a different thread. To bring this one back to the topic in the OP:

I think what Ohtani is doing is far more impressive and valuable than a triple crown season. I just don't see any possible way that anyone other than Ohtani gets the MVP unless he gets injured or somehow forgets how to hit or pitch. But if he keeps up what he's been doing this season, there's no way in hell Vlad gets the MVP over him even if he wins the triple crown. I just don't see it happening.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is a hilarious take. Teams in the 60s shot lower percentages because they sucked at shooting. Go watch some film. Half these guys look like my wife when she shoots a basketball. It's a complete joke. Russell and Wilt averaged an estimated 8-9 blocked shots per game. It's not because they were immortals, it's because they were blocking shots from YMCA guys. Olajuwan probably would have blocked 15 shots per game back then.

Here's my hot take - Bill Russell is probably the single most overrated athlete of any sport in any era.

I'm not saying Bill Russell sucked. He was very good. Possibly top 20 all-time in my book. But some people talk about him like he's the GOAT, which is completely ridiculous. Wilt was by FAR the better player and it wasn't even close.

Thank you. Could not agree more.

[Yoda]

I think it is kinda cool we are comparing the Babe to a Japanese ballplayer.
I lived in Tokyo for 9 years during the 70's and 80's and can assure you that the Japanese are every bit as passionate about baseball as we are. While there, I became a die-hard, or as die-hard as possible being a gaijin (outsider), fan of the Tokyo Giants and attended many a game. I loved the custom of fans returning foul balls which are collected by an army of very pretty girls. Don't think that would work at Fenway. And while Nagashima, Oh, Ichiro and soon Ohtani are national icons, I don't believe they are held in the same esteem as Ruth, nor ever will be.

[brianclat11]

It doesn't take anything away from the Babe to acknowledge how special Ohtani is and what he is doing in this age of modern baseball and the physical specimens that play the game. The only reason that there is a comparison is the fact that no player has performed to this level as both a pitcher and everyday player since Babe did it for a short period of time back in the day. I don't think there is anything wrong with showing appreciation for both and marvel at what Shohei is doing.

[Ricky]

I mean, it’s hard to understand how pitchers of today, with better size, physique and training, break down while pitchers in 1900-1920, who were smaller, were completing every game and throwing 300-400 innings every year, year after year, in shorter rotations. They couldn’t have been throwing as hard.

And how did all of those 5’7 165 pound guys get their 45 ounce bats around on 95 mph fastballs?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by brianclat11

It doesn't take anything away from the Babe to acknowledge how special Ohtani is and what he is doing in this age of modern baseball and the physical specimens that play the game. The only reason that there is a comparison is the fact that no player has performed to this level as both a pitcher and everyday player since Babe did it for a short period of time back in the day. I don't think there is anything wrong with showing appreciation for both and marvel at what Shohei is doing.

Stats are just numbers. Figures lie and liars figure, and we have some on this forum.

All numbers aside Brian has summarized the intent of this thread without using a calculator, or an abacus for that matter.

Bravo!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Stats are just numbers. Figures lie and liars figure, and we have some on this forum.

All numbers aside Brian has summarized the intent of this thread without using a calculator, or an abacus for that matter.

Bravo!

That is funny, because in the very first post to start this thread you ended up including all kinds of figures and stats for Ruth and Ohtani yourself. You even asked the specific question, "So how have they done?", which is basically telling everyone to compare their stats. Now, did you tell everyone in your opening post to not start comparing Ruth to Ohtani beyond those single years for both of them? No! But you know darn well that people on here are going to start comparing their overall stats and how you can't compare the two and blah, blah, blah. You can pretty much expect the thread will also get hijacked somewhat in the recurring modern versus old time player comparisons and who is better, and blah, blah, blah again. So why didn't you just leave out all the actual stats and simply say that 2021 and Ohtani is the first time since 1919 and Ruth that we've had a full time pitcher and everyday player in MLB, wish Ohtani well, and leave it at that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Damn it, I want to know where that .332 comes from, now it's bothering me.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Yeah, the "he played against short guys" thing has definitely been exaggerated over the years. What's definitely true is that the players he played against were nowhere near as good as later generations. Wilt's rebound statistics are significantly inflated because teams played at a breakneck pace while also shooting poorly. For example, in 1960/61 when Wilt set the rebounding record, teams took an average of 109.4 shots per game - EACH - while shooting 41.5% from the floor. That's an average of 128 rebounds per game for players to grab. Compare that to 2020/21 where teams took 88.4 shots per game while shooting 46.6% from the floor. That's an average of 94 rebounds per game - 34 fewer. So, yeah, your rebounding numbers are going to be higher if guys are throwing up 2.67 missed shots per minute.

Perhaps it's been slightly exaggerated, but I wouldn't say greatly. There were definitely a lot more shorter (and not very athletic) white guys on the court back then than there are today. But height aside, those guys were terrible overall. And I mean TERRIBLE. Just watch film from the Wilt and Russell era. It's absolutely hilarious watching most of those guys playing, or trying to play, basketball. Also, let's not forget that these were mostly layups and short-range jump shots that they were missing too. Only a couple years prior to that, when Bill Russell won MVP, the league average FG% was 38%!!! If you shoot 38% today, you're getting cut. This was league average back then! You mentioned that in 2020/21 FG% was 46.6%, but that's including 3s, the 2-pt FG% was 53%, which is a much more apples to apples comparison if discussing how good they were at shooting the type of shots they were taking back then.

Also, guys like Wilt played the entire game back then, so he racked up more statistics. Let's compare Wilt's best rebounding season to Dennis Rodman's best season. If you take the average number of available rebounds of 73.3 per team from 1960/61 vs the 43.7 from 1991/92 and adjust for playing time (Wilt averaged 47.8 mpg, Rodman averaged 40.3 mpg), then Rodman's share of rebounds would have added up to 37.2 rebounds per game in the 1960 NBA season vs Wilt's 27.2. That's how much better of a rebounder Dennis Rodman was than Wilt Chamberlain. Don't get me wrong, Wilt was insanely great. At pretty much everything. But he couldn't even hold a candle to Dennis Rodman rebound-wise.