The Cleveland Guardians? Yes, It's Official

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Mark17

And the Indians were named after Sockalexis. Why can a team be named after some people and no offense is taken (Brown, Lajoie) but not others?

It seems like for every tradition in this country, there is somebody intent on tearing it down.

Yep. Like this one.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/23/us/kk...tol/index.html

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Yep. Like this one.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/23/us/kk...tol/index.html

That would be an excellent analogy........ if Sockalexis had founded a hate group.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Mark17

That would be an excellent analogy........ if Sockalexis had founded a hate group.

I see. You get to decide what is tradition and what is offensive. Damn shame the Cleveland ownership didn't consult with you before deciding to change names.

As was discussed back late last year, this so-called cancel culture has been going on for half a century now when it comes to teams changing their nicknames. So you can piss and moan all you want, it's not going away.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I see. You get to decide what is tradition and what is offensive. Damn shame the Cleveland ownership didn't consult with you before deciding to change names.

As was discussed back late last year, this so-called cancel culture has been going on for half a century now when it comes to teams changing their nicknames. So you can piss and moan all you want, it's not going away.

Cancel culture has been going on for 50 years?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cammb

Cancel culture has been going on for 50 years?

No where close to the extent it is now. I can't even get Uncle Ben's rice any longer. Now it's Uncle Harry's or something (no offense to anyone named Harry)

[BobC]

I wonder if we'd be having this discussion had the Indians agreed to give a percentage of their take every year to some indian tribes or charities for the supposed use of the term "Indians"? Would be interesting to see how the "insulted" ethnic group would have reacted had the team ownership just voluntarily decided to change the name, and then informed those tribes/charities they would no longer be getting any money from the team.

[packs]

Maybe it's true that naming the team the Cleveland Indians was out of respect but it clearly didn't last. Chief Wahoo could not be confused with respect on any level in my opinion. I'm not sure why there's always resistance to ending bad practices. Why would anyone want to perpetuate Chief Wahoo? Or an association with it? Even though I don't like Guardians it is a clean break from all things Wahoo. Although I think Naps or Spiders would have accomplished the same thing.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by BobC

I wonder if we'd be having this discussion had the Indians agreed to give a percentage of their take every year to some indian tribes or charities for the supposed use of the term "Indians"? Would be interesting to see how the "insulted" ethnic group would have reacted had the team ownership just voluntarily decided to change the name, and then informed those tribes/charities they would no longer be getting any money from the team.

You may want to re-examine your assumptions here. There is certainly still significant poverty in native communities, but tribes are considered sovereign nations and in many states are quite rich due to operating casinos and other businesses. Here in Oklahoma, our governor had the brilliant idea that he would renegotiate the gaming compact with the tribes to increase the revenue for the state. The tribes basically told him to f--k off and made it stick. The tribes are probably the most powerful political constituency in Oklahoma behind the oil and gas industry. So, throwing a little charity their way under the assumption they'll be grateful for your largesse may fail spectacularly.

Funny (now) story. My wife is an Ohio girl and while I am not originally from there, it is where my family lives now. A number of years ago, on a visit, I (without even thinking) bought an Indians ballcap with the Chief Wahoo logo on it. When I got back home (without even thinking) I wore it out in public, I got a lot of dirty looks. Needless to say, the hat was relegated to yardwork duty and, within a year, was in the trash.

As for the name, I love it. Cleveland is a great town and the Guardians of Transportation are a significant local landmark. They are part of the Hope Memorial Bridge which connects the Ohio City neighborhood to downtown. The ballpark sits at the east end of the bridge. My wife and I were back there a few weekends ago for a wedding. As is our habit, we went to Ohio City for lunch and a visit to the Market Garden microbrewery (which uses a Guardian in their corporate logo.) There was a little art fair going on in a plaza across 25th Street from the West Side Market and there was a lot of Guardian inspired artwork on display. I even bought this t-shirt:



It really made me realize how much the Guardians of Transportation are part of Clevelands identity.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by cammb

Cancel culture has been going on for 50 years?

That's my point-- there is nothing real new here. The Stanford team changed its name from the Indians to Cardinals in 1972, and several other teams followed suit in the ensuing few years. There was no such term as cancel culture, now it's considered some kind of movement fostered by a sort of evil, anti-American, what have they done to my great country cabal. Oh the horror!

[Billy5858]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

That's my point-- there is nothing real new here. The Stanford team changed its name from the Indians to Cardinals in 1972, and several other teams followed suit in the ensuing few years. There was no such term as cancel culture, now it's considered some kind of movement fostered by a sort of evil, anti-American, what have they done to my great country cabal. Oh the horror!

This ^^^

You “cancel culture” people…get over it!
Ben is not my uncle and Jemima is not my aunt.
Do some research

[timn1]

Don't you people complaining about "cancel culture" have anything important to worry about?

Originally Posted by nolemmings

That's my point-- there is nothing real new here. The Stanford team changed its name from the Indians to Cardinals in 1972, and several other teams followed suit in the ensuing few years. There was no such term as cancel culture, now it's considered some kind of movement fostered by a sort of evil, anti-American, what have they done to my great country cabal. Oh the horror!

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by timn1

Don't you people complaining about "cancel culture" have anything important to worry about?

Probably not.

Cancel culture and it's younger cousin, critical race theory, are just the leading contenders for the moral panic du jour.

FWIW, here is a picture of one of the Guardians my wife took on our annual trip back to Ohio a few years ago.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Yep. Like this one.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/23/us/kk...tol/index.html

Which is worse? To memorialize a KKK member with a bust or parade with them?

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Which is worse? To memorialize a KKK member with a bust or parade with them?

I am sure that you know that your post is disingenuous BS. Senator Robert Byrd was a member of the KKK in his youth, later calling it the biggest mistake of his life. He renounced the KKK, racism and segregation. Nathan Bedford Forrest was a traitor, an unrepentant racist and a sociopathic murderer.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I am sure that you know that your post is disingenuous BS.

More disingenuous than your BS post?

You think political reasons might have been why Byrd renounced the KKK, racism and segregation?

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

More disingenuous than your BS post?

You think political reasons might have been why Byrd renounced the KKK, racism and segregation?

You are the one who compared him to the author of the Fort Pillow massacre and the Grand Wizard of the KKK. I am not sure that Senator Byrd was too concerned about “political reasons”considering that his state, even today, is more than 93% white. So President Biden was photographed with Senator Byrd. That proves exactly what? Shall I post the dozens of photos of Trump with known racists, insurrectionists and pedophiles? To what end?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

you are the one who compared him to the author of the fort pillow massacre and the grand wizard of the kkk. I am not sure that senator byrd was too concerned about “political reasons”considering that his state, even today, is more than 93% white. So president biden was photographed with senator byrd. That proves exactly what? Shall i post the dozens of photos of trump with known racists, insurrectionists and pedophiles? To what end?

Can't reason with stupidity.

[rholmes]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

gfy

Better watch out, your intelligence is showing.

[Chuck9788]

How is their new logo not a trademark copyright infringement of the Los Angeles Angels?!?

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Can't reason with stupidity.

I agree. Certainly your ignorant responses have proved that point.

[Mark17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I am sure that you know that your post is disingenuous BS. Senator Robert Byrd was a member of the KKK in his youth, later calling it the biggest mistake of his life. He renounced the KKK, racism and segregation. Nathan Bedford Forrest was a traitor, an unrepentant racist and a sociopathic murderer.

Forrest joined the Ku Klux Klan in 1867 (two years after its founding) and was elected its first Grand Wizard. The group was a loose collection of local factions throughout the former Confederacy that used violence and the threat of violence to maintain white control over the newly enfranchised former slaves. The Klan, with Forrest at the lead, suppressed voting rights of blacks in the South through violence and intimidation during the elections of 1868.

In 1869, Forrest expressed disillusionment with the lack of discipline in the white supremacist terrorist group across the South and issued a letter ordering the dissolution of the Ku Klux Klan as well as the destruction of its costumes; he then withdrew from the organization. In the last years of his life, Forrest insisted he had never been a member and made a public speech in favor of racial harmony.

Much like Bob Byrd, Forrest denounced racism later in life.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Should I get rid of my Manny rookie and get the one in a high school uniform or the one in street clothes?

I lost it with this movement when San Francisco changed the name of a school previously named after Abraham Lincoln, because of his role in the 1837 Black Hawk War.

Speaking of Black Hawks, COME ON Chicago. How about the Chicago Loop or something.

[seanofjapan]

As someone who has never been to Cleveland I wasn’t sure what to make of the new name, wondering why the team was now named after an English newspaper.

But then it was explained the name comes from some statues on a bridge (pictured in comments above). Are these famous landmarks in Cleveland that all the locals know about? If so, it seems like a good choice for a name.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

As someone who has never been to Cleveland I wasn’t sure what to make of the new name, wondering why the team was now named after an English newspaper.

But then it was explained the name comes from some statues on a bridge (pictured in comments above). Are these famous landmarks in Cleveland that all the locals know about? If so, it seems like a good choice for a name.

Yeah, we know of them them, but they aren't all that famous. Don't forget this is the town that has "A Tower that is Terminal, overlooking a Lake that is Erie!" It is the "Mistake on the Lake", and we also have the (in)famous burning Cuyahoga River. Which was famously immortalized in song by Randy Newman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0zG5aux9zs

In fact, the Cuyahoga River is just across the street and down the hill from the stadium, and Cleveland is in Cuyahoga County and the Cuyahoga Valley National Park is just a few miles south of the stadium as well. Doesn't roll off the tongue as well, but could have called them the Cleveland Cuyahogans. A somewhat unique name, and since it is a mixture of names that different native American tribes called the river, it has a tie to the old team name of the Indians, while not directly offending anyone (at least no one I can think of). We already have the best state rock-n-roll song in the world that gets played during 7th inning or late inning stretches (Hang On Sloopy), as well as Ian Hunter's anthem (Cleveland Rocks) to play after victories. We also have favorite sons like Drew Carey and Bob Hope (whose Father the Hope Memorial Bridge is actually named for) Oh, and Bob Hope was actually an owner of the Indians back in the 60s and appeared on the cover of Sports Illustrated's June 3, 1963 cover in an Indians uniform, with Chief Wahoo prominently displayed.

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/201...pid=will-smith

And who can forget "Hot In Cleveland", or the Rock-N-Roll HOF and Museum on the lakefront, or "The Christmas Story" house and museum in the Tremont section of town. And of course you can also see the old League Park and museum on Cleveland's near East side, which was built originally in 1891 and was where the Cleveland Spiders, and later the Naps and Indians actually played. It is also the site of the first de facto All-Star game on July 24, 1911 when the Naps played a team of assembled All-Stars in an exhibition game for the benefit of Addie Joss' widow and family. That is the game where Cobb didn't have his Tiger's uniform and borrowed a Cleveland uniform to play in.

https://www.ozy.com/the-new-and-the-...ar-game/77109/

And eventually the Negro League team the Cleveland Buckeyes played at League Park as well. Maybe another good name they could have chosen for the team if not for The Ohio State University probably having a stranglehold on that copyright.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Am I politically incorrect to still own this? Bet you're noticing that logo a lot more than you would have in the past.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Am I politically incorrect to still own this? Bet you're noticing that logo a lot more than you would have in the past.

Hey, I still have my vintage 1940's Rempel doll of Chief Wahoo. Definitely not getting rid of that.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Mark17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest




Forrest joined the Ku Klux Klan in 1867 (two years after its founding) and was elected its first Grand Wizard. The group was a loose collection of local factions throughout the former Confederacy that used violence and the threat of violence to maintain white control over the newly enfranchised former slaves. The Klan, with Forrest at the lead, suppressed voting rights of blacks in the South through violence and intimidation during the elections of 1868.

In 1869, Forrest expressed disillusionment with the lack of discipline in the white supremacist terrorist group across the South and issued a letter ordering the dissolution of the Ku Klux Klan as well as the destruction of its costumes; he then withdrew from the organization. In the last years of his life, Forrest insisted he had never been a member and made a public speech in favor of racial harmony.

Much like Bob Byrd, Forrest denounced racism later in life.

+1

But as I said earlier, you can't reason with stupidly. But I guess the jackass hasn't read your post yet, otherwise he would call it "disingenuous BS" as he did mine.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

+1

But as I said earlier, you can't reason with stupidly. But I guess the jackass hasn't read your post yet, otherwise he would call it "disingenuous BS" as he did mine.

Bob Byrd never massacred Black Union Soldiers as they were trying to surrender. They are not equivalent. You are a moron.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Bob Byrd never massacred Black Union Soldiers as they were trying to surrender. They are not equivalent. You are a moron.

And you are not God. You don't get to decide which sins are forgiven and which are not, you ignorant jackass.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Mark17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest




Forrest joined the Ku Klux Klan in 1867 (two years after its founding) and was elected its first Grand Wizard. The group was a loose collection of local factions throughout the former Confederacy that used violence and the threat of violence to maintain white control over the newly enfranchised former slaves. The Klan, with Forrest at the lead, suppressed voting rights of blacks in the South through violence and intimidation during the elections of 1868.

In 1869, Forrest expressed disillusionment with the lack of discipline in the white supremacist terrorist group across the South and issued a letter ordering the dissolution of the Ku Klux Klan as well as the destruction of its costumes; he then withdrew from the organization. In the last years of his life, Forrest insisted he had never been a member and made a public speech in favor of racial harmony.

Much like Bob Byrd, Forrest denounced racism later in life.

Look. This discussion has nothing to do with the thread. It started because vintagetoppsguy tried to disparage Biden, who I am no fan of BTW, by showing a picture of him with Robert Byrd and suggesting that that was worse than having a bust honoring Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest. Never mind that Robert Byrd served in the Senate for 51 years and was minority leader at the time, obviously someone Biden was obligated to work with. Never mind that Byrd joined the KKK as a youth but later called it the biggest mistake of his life and renounced racism and segregation. Never mind that Forrest was not just a member of the KKK but its Grand Wizard. Never mind that Forrest massacred Black Union soldiers at Fort Pillow as they tried to surrender. Never mind that the false equivalency could not be more obvious. The level of evil displayed by Forrest is in no way comparable to Robert Byrd. Not equivalent at all. For pointing this out, I was called stupid and a jackass. How ridiculous. I am done. This has nothing to do with Cleveland adopting new name.