Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[packs]

Guess it depends how you view Wilhelm. He has over 200 saves but finished 650 out of 1,070 games. Also started just over 50 but a lot of innings in between.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Suppose there was a pitcher who almost exclusively pitched the 8th and sometimes the 7th inning, and did so for a career, amassing 600+ "holds" which is to the best of my knowledge an official stat. Hall worthy, and if not why not?

[G1911]

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the first, my team wins.

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the second, my team wins.

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the third, my team wins.

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the fourth, my team wins.

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the fifth, my team wins.

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the sixth, my team wins.

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the seventh, my team wins.

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the eighth, my team wins.

If the other team scores 2 runs and I score 3 in the ninth, my team wins.


It does not matter which inning I score, they are equal in determining the outcome. Obviously a game ends at some point but my 9th inning run scoring is no more or less important than my first inning run scoring in the math; it's more dramatic in the 9th for emotional tension and excitement.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Say Rivera comes in to pitch the 9th with a 2 run lead, and succeeds. The popular narrative is, Sandman shut the door!! But the statistical fact is, most of the time, any solid major league starter would have done the same.

[packs]

Emotional tension and excitement is why pitching the 9th is so difficult. The game is played by people. When you say scoring 3 runs in the 4th inning to win 3 to 2 is the same as scoring 3 runs in the 9th to win 3 to 2, I think you are removing the human element, which cannot be removed from a game played by people.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Emotional tension and excitement is why pitching the 9th is so difficult. The game is played by people. When you say scoring 3 runs in the 4th inning to win 3 to 2 is the same as scoring 3 runs in the 9th to win 3 to 2, I think you are removing the human element, which cannot be removed from a game played by people.

Meh. How much emotional tension and excitement is there in your typical game?

[packs]

Apparently a lot because there aren't many elite closers.

[abothebear]

I don’t deny the human element. But I think those who elevate closers overvalue control of the human element and under apply it. It isn’t as big of a factor as the announcers make it to be, and it certainly isn’t something that is rare among pitchers. Any competent starter demonstrates ample Human element composure through many high leverage and high drama moments throughout their six plus innings of work.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

Emotional tension and excitement is why pitching the 9th is so difficult. The game is played by people. When you say scoring 3 runs in the 4th inning to win 3 to 2 is the same as scoring 3 runs in the 9th to win 3 to 2, I think you are removing the human element, which cannot be removed from a game played by people.

I disagree. These are professionals who play 162 games times 9 (now 7 sometimes) innings. One inning is basically the same as another. And if there is extra urgency in the final inning, that could cut either way: Make a hitter more focused to succeed or more nervous to fail, make the pitcher more likely to excel or make him more likely to choke, and same with the fielders, baserunners, and so on.

The ninth inning is the most overrated concept in baseball. If I'm a manager with a top reliever and a mediocre one, I'll bring the best one in to stop a 7th inning rally where there are 2 on with just one out, and maybe use the mediocre one to start the ninth, rather than the other way around.

[packs]

How can you disagree on the tension of the 9th inning? Surely we've all played baseball at some point. I find this really hard to believe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I disagree. These are professionals who play 162 games times 9 (now 7 sometimes) innings. One inning is basically the same as another. And if there is extra urgency in the final inning, that could cut either way: Make a hitter more focused to succeed or more nervous to fail, make the pitcher more likely to excel or make him more likely to choke, and same with the fielders, baserunners, and so on.

The ninth inning is the most overrated concept in baseball. If I'm a manager with a top reliever and a mediocre one, I'll bring the best one in to stop a 7th inning rally where there are 2 on with just one out, and maybe use the mediocre one to start the ninth, rather than the other way around.

Terry Francona was doing that a couple of years back with Andrew Miller as I recall. Even earlier in the game if he felt a hold then and there was key. Sort of blew up some sacrosanct notions of a closer.