Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[abothebear]

I understand we have to deal with what is, but I have a hard time believing there aren’t a thousand great starters who would have been even better if they only prepped for and gave all effort to one inning when already staked with the lead. That is why the sentiment of Rivera being the guy if you needed one inning is nonsense to me. Let me see the hundreds of Hall of Fame starters prepare for and only be depended on for one inning and then I’ll tell you if Mariano is the guy or not. I highly doubt it would be so clear. Frank Tannana, Roy Oswalt, Chuck Finley, these and many many more really good pitchers can easily be imagined having long and successful careers as one-inning closers. They weren’t because they were too good to waste on that, especially when there was a plethora of not-as-good guys to be maximized in a short stint when only one great pitch is needed.

Keith Hernandez closes out the most games as a hitter, nobody talks about this stat when making Keith’s case. But it is essentially the same statistic as a save.

What about Lenny Harris? Should he be in for all time pinch hits? Sure, he isn’t good enough to be a starter, but look at him shine in his fraction of the game.

[packs]

Again, I think you're vastly oversimplifying what a closer does. There is a reason hardly any closers close out games for 20 years. There is nothing to doubt about Rivera. He is as good as you will ever get at the position. Roy Oswalt would not have been better than he was.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Again, I think you're vastly oversimplifying what a closer does. There is a reason hardly any closers close out games for 20 years. There is nothing to doubt about Rivera. He is as good as you will ever get at the position. Roy Oswalt would not have been better than he was.

Did you read the article I posted?

[Peter_Spaeth]

To the fan, the ninth inning seems more dramatic and important. But the reality is that the team that scores the most runs over all nine innings wins. Therefore, all runs count the same, as do all runs prevented. Therefore, a rational team should want its best pitchers throwing the most innings, not limiting them to specialized innings which is a fallacy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The popular line about Rivera was that he made it an 8 inning game. Why wouldn't that have been equally true (if it was) had he pitched the first inning of the same games?

[packs]

The team that scores the most runs wins, but games are decided in the 9th inning. That's when you need to win the game. You can't win the game with 7 strong.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

The team that scores the most runs wins, but games are decided in the 9th inning. That's when you need to win the game. You can't win the game with 7 strong.

A run scored is a run scored. A run prevented is a run prevented. If you didn't give up the 2 in the first, you would be in a dramatically different place heading into the 9th.

[packs]

No. If you score 3 in the first and the score is 3-2 in the 9th, you don't win for scoring 3 in the first. You win when the 9th inning is over and you're still ahead.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

No. If you score 3 in the first and the score is 3-2 in the 9th, you don't win for scoring 3 in the first. You win when the 9th inning is over and you're still ahead.

Disagree fundamentally.

Is there any other team sport with specialists who play only at the end of the game?

[packs]

IF you're a football fan you're probably familiar with your kicker.

[abothebear]

Asserting that the game is decided or won in the 9th doesn’t make it true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Asserting that the game is decided or won in the 9th doesn’t make it true.

It's a truism just like saying golf is won on the 18th hole because the game ends there, but it isn't meaningful because in golf every stroke counts and in baseball every run counts equally.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If a golfer misses a birdie putt on 1, and then misses a birdie putt on 18 that would have tied him for the lead, both shots are of equal consequence, although of course to the observer the miss on 18 might seem more critical.

[JollyElm]

And round and round the arguments still go...

Peoplewithhulahoops.jpg

[perezfan]

Then let the pinch hitters in.... Manny Mota, Smoky Burgess and Lenny Harris belong in the Hall of Fame!