Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[Jason19th]

The Billy Wagner chart really isn’t an apples to apples comparison. Fingers, Gossage and Hoyt played a different game as relievers. They were often asked to pitch multiple innings or come in with an out in the 7th. If you want to compare Wagner you have to look at guys like John Franco or Fransisco Rodriquez. If Wagner goes in don’t those guys have to go in to ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

The Billy Wagner chart really isn’t an apples to apples comparison. Fingers, Gossage and Hoyt played a different game as relievers. They were often asked to pitch multiple innings or come in with an out in the 7th. If you want to compare Wagner you have to look at guys like John Franco or Fransisco Rodriquez. If Wagner goes in don’t those guys have to go in to ?

Yeah let's see him next to Rivera and even Hoffman.

[TheBig6]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

The Billy Wagner chart really isn’t an apples to apples comparison. Fingers, Gossage and Hoyt played a different game as relievers. They were often asked to pitch multiple innings or come in with an out in the 7th. If you want to compare Wagner you have to look at guys like John Franco or Fransisco Rodriquez. If Wagner goes in don’t those guys have to go in to ?

I agree with you on how Wagner was used compared to Wilhelm, Gossage, & Sutter. As far as comparing him to Franco or Rodriquez. They basically are close on saves. Franco pitched a half dozen more years than Wagner to amass 400+ saves. Wagner’s era was a lot better than Rodriquez. As a closer, I think Wagner is overlooked.

[abothebear]

I have no interest in modern closers getting in. When any 1-3 (and often 4-5) starter can convert to a reliever, only use their two best pitches, and ramp up their mph for one inning of work and be as good or better than most relievers, I don’t see how it makes sense to honor the save like we do. These guys are the not good enough to start guys, why should they get in? I’m not saying they aren’t useful, or even valuable. I’m not saying I don’t want great relievers on my favorite team. What I’m saying is that it doesn’t make sense to honor players as the best when the reason they are doing the job they are doing is because they aren’t the best.

[abothebear]

I wouldn’t choose them for all star games either. I know it makes strategic sense to get one inning guys for a game like that, but it doesn’t make all-star sense.

[TheBig6]

I agree that closers shouldn’t be in the hall outside of Mario Rivera. But when they put Sutter in Wagner was brought up as getting no traction. I’m biased as I was born and raised in Houston. And yes I’m still stoked about the 2017 World Championship. I went to the first Colt 45’s game, so I waited for along time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by abothebear

I have no interest in modern closers getting in. When any 1-3 (and often 4-5) starter can convert to a reliever, only use their two best pitches, and ramp up their mph for one inning of work and be as good or better than most relievers, I don’t see how it makes sense to honor the save like we do. These guys are the not good enough to start guys, why should they get in? I’m not saying they aren’t useful, or even valuable. I’m not saying I don’t want great relievers on my favorite team. What I’m saying is that it doesn’t make sense to honor players as the best when the reason they are doing the job they are doing is because they aren’t the best.

We had a really good discussion of this I think when Rivera made the Hall.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ghlight=rivera

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://retrosheet.org/Research/Smit...fTheCloser.pdf

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

The Billy Wagner chart really isn’t an apples to apples comparison. Fingers, Gossage and Hoyt played a different game as relievers. They were often asked to pitch multiple innings or come in with an out in the 7th. If you want to compare Wagner you have to look at guys like John Franco or Fransisco Rodriquez. If Wagner goes in don’t those guys have to go in to ?

Of course if you use WAR, you get a very different result in terms of comparing Wagner even to the 70s and 80s guys. Cherry picked data.