M101-2 Supplements in Memory Lane

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Bingo. And I found the info I had been looking for before.

In June 2020, Lelands auctioned a near-complete set of 96/100. All of the main stars were included and were graded PSA A; the rest of the set was raw. This was the first time I'd seen any in PSA holders, so PSA must have just started grading them not too long before that. The set sold for $12,998.40. The buyer immediately split the set and put each of the supplements for sale individually on eBay, with BIN prices on the graded ones about 3x or more of comparable raw versions (and the raw ones were also priced about 2.5x other raw comps). I thought they would sit forever in the eBay museum, but one collector immediately bought the Jackson and Cobb/Wagner and posted them here and on other sites. He noted with pride that the Cobb/Wagner was a "POP 1" and was the first and only copy that PSA had graded. I was floored.

Since then, PSA A and 1 copies have continued to do unreasonably well. Meanwhile, around the same time I bought an absolutely beautiful Eddie Collins in BVG 4.5 for $160. BVG cards in grades 2-3ish continued to stay around $125-250 for mid-tier HOFers, while PSA 1s were sometimes pulling $300 when there were better raw or BVG copies available. And now we have a PSA 1 Jackson alone going for $12,700, which was basically the price of the entire 96/100 set that sold 13 months ago.

Unlike most other prewar cards where the highest-quality examples are already in TPG holders, 99% of the highest-quality examples of M101-2s are in raw collections, along with tons of examples that would probably grade in the 2-4 range. Whoever is buying these either has no knowledge or understanding of the series, or is a registry addict, or both. As BobC mentioned, if the people holding the 99% of the nice raw M101-2s start grading them, the people who are paying $12K for a PSA 1 Jackson and $10K for a PSA 1 Wagner are going to be hurting.

But who knows, we'll probably look at this thread in 3 years and think they got the deal of the century.

Dan, Thanks for that info, was not aware of that sale last year. Based on the timing and everything else going on, yours and my thinking sounds like it may be on the money then to possibly explain how those ML auction prices got so high, people basing their purchases on the PSA registry somehow. If that is the case though, I can't believe the extremely low number of PSA graded M101-2s wouldn't make someone stop and wonder why there are so few graded on their pop report. They could do an Ebay search and easily find supplements for sale, especially Beckett graded ones in much nicer shape as you pointed out. I totally agree with you that there are likely a lot of much nicer supplements out there in private collections, but the apparent timing of PSA starting to grade them only recently, coupled with the pandemic and the PSA grading backlogs and delays, have possibly worked to keep the pop report numbers for these so low, at least for now. With those prices realized in the ML auction I've got to believe it was noticed by others as well, and it will be interesting to see if the number of PSA graded M101-2s starts to jump in the coming months.

The big question then, as you alluded to, is if others do start getting many more of these supplements graded by PSA, what is the impact on future prices. I feel these ML auction prices are ridiculousy high for the grades, and conventional wisdom would make one think that if they bring more M101-2s out for grading that are in much nicer condition that will have a negative impact on the pricing/value of these PSA1 graded supplements. But as we've seen over the past year or so, conventional wisdom on pricing has gone out the window, and it is possible that the new collectors/money that appear to be the main culprits behind the price surges during this pandemic may view these ML auction prices this past week as a new starting point for M101-2 prices going forward. In which case, if higher graded PSA examples of these supplements start hitting the market, we may see prices going even higher. I guess only time will tell.

By the way Dan, love how you have your M101-2 collection raw and in the binders. Have mine the same way with one of those rigid comic/magazine backing pieces in each page to support the supplements so they don't accidently get bent or creased. What do you do for the the double page team supplements then, just leave them folded over in the binder page then?

One thing did strike me as odd though. This Newman collection had so many high graded examples of unbelievable cards, I couldn't believe he would have been satisfied collecting only PSA1 condition M101-2s, and can't believe he couldn't have found nicer examples. Newman clearly had an eye for condition and quality so you would expect he would know those M101-2s wouldn't have graded well had he originally bought them raw. Maybe that is another factor that played into the amazing prices those sold for. If bidders saw how high-end the rest of his collection was, they may have assumed that those M101-2s he had were also among the best examples in the hobby as well, and bid accordingly, despite them all being only PSA1s.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out going forward. Now if PSA would just start grading S74 silks as well...........

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by BobC

By the way Dan, love how you have your M101-2 collection raw and in the binders. Have mine the same way with one of those rigid comic/magazine backing pieces in each page to support the supplements so they don't accidently get bent or creased. What do you do for the the double page team supplements then, just leave them folded over in the binder page then?

Thanks Bob! I just use regular clear document holders that fit in a 3-ring binder. Then I found some nice, acid-free 8x11" cardstock pages in a nice chocolate color that matches the supplements. I put one cardstock page in each holder and then put the supplements on the front and back, so 2 per page. They sit nicely without any help, so they're not attached to the cardstock in any way. I only have one of the double-page team supplements so far, and I haven't figured out how I'm going to include it yet. If I can wrap the center seam around the edge of the cardstock so that the front and back show on opposite sides of the page without damaging the supplement, I'll probably end up doing that.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Agreed. I don't even understand the registry addict element either, unless the object is to just have a set registered regardless of grade.

I think that's the entire point...grade doesn't matter, so long as you have a higher set ranking than the next guy! And with so few graded, you can grab that top ranking with a bunch of As and 1s.

Beautiful Bresnahan, BTW! I'm still missing that one.

[puckpaul]

Wait until they start grading my M101-1s!!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

Wait until they start grading my M101-1s!!

No kidding, if PSA grading did this to the M101-2 prices, can only imagine the impact on the M101-1s.

Now if I can only get them to start grading S74 silks........

[Rhotchkiss]

Just commenting to say that image of Bresnahan is awesome- what a bad ass pic

He kinds looks like Ray Consella’s dad at the end of Field of Dreams

[VintageBen]

What do you think that does to the PC805 and PC796 which have same images as M101-2?

[yanksfan09]

Originally Posted by VintageBen

What do you think that does to the PC805 and PC796 which have same images as M101-2?

The supplements are very nice. But I’d much rather have the thicker card stock postcards for sure! They should be valued at multiples of the paper supplements in my opinion!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

The supplements are very nice. But I’d much rather have the thicker card stock postcards for sure! They should be valued at multiples of the paper supplements in my opinion!

To each his own, both are more of a niche collectible and not the normal "cards" that most go after. I'm more of a premium/supplement person myself, as opposed to PCs. Not sure if one will really outdo the other, at least not for the major stars. The thing about the paper supplements is that they are much more fragile since they are paper, but much larger than the PCs also, so when you do find them in decent shape they look really great. Just have to be careful with them.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by VintageBen

What do you think that does to the PC805 and PC796 which have same images as M101-2?

Hard to say, no real precedent to point to in this case. Both supplements and PCs are treated differently than regular "cards" and not as mainstream. Still, with prices like those M101-2s got in the ML auction, you know it will get someone's attention and raise some interest in the PCs. What would really help the PCs though is if PSA would also grade them. Am not really familiar with either PC issue, are they graded by anyone now?

[mouschi]

I'm the guy Dan is talking about...I picked up the Cobb/Wagner, shoeless Joe, and wajo/street. I was also the underbidder for the 96/100 run last year. Man was i bummed...I was majorly excited when the singles popped and was able to get my 3 favorites!

This may sound odd to some, but once more people see these, I don't think there's going to be enough supply of them regardless if a slew of them are graded.

When I showed these to people, they had the same reaction as I did: they are jaw droppingly gorgeous. Many have expressed "I've got to get me some of these!" After having seen them for the first time. Before June of 2020, I didn't even know these existed. They are true hidden gems, and I think the psa slabs add "legitimacy" to them for many of that makes sense.

[drumback]

The ones with ads on the back are pretty cool too, although almost impossible to find.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mouschi

I'm the guy Dan is talking about...I picked up the Cobb/Wagner, shoeless Joe, and wajo/street. I was also the underbidder for the 96/100 run last year. Man was i bummed...I was majorly excited when the singles popped and was able to get my 3 favorites!

This may sound odd to some, but once more people see these, I don't think there's going to be enough supply of them regardless if a slew of them are graded.

When I showed these to people, they had the same reaction as I did: they are jaw droppingly gorgeous. Many have expressed "I've got to get me some of these!" After having seen them for the first time. Before June of 2020, I didn't even know these existed. They are true hidden gems, and I think the psa slabs add "legitimacy" to them for many of that makes sense.

Mouschi,

That is great, I am so glad you are happy with them. Can't believe you've never seen these until recently though. They've been around and aren't hiding. I remember at one of the old Cleveland Nationals talking with a guy who had about 30-40 raw ones for sale, in decent shape, who had told me he actually found them in someone's garbage and picked them out. I think they're beautiful, and a great set to work on. Check out the way Dan has his displayed in binders, which is the same way I keep mine.

And one of the nice things about this set was that you could always find them at reasonable prices....at least you used to. LOL The first ten issued in 1909 are especially nice, and loaded with some all-time great HOFers. They've all got that white border at the top of the supplement that says it a supplement from the Sporting News, St. Louis, and gives the issue date the supplement was included with. Be sure to check out the Ed Walsh pose on the 9/9/1909 supplement, it is fantastic. And they've got some great team photos that are double pages as well, including the Pirates with Wagner, and the Tigers with Cobb. They are huge and the images are really clear. The Tigers one is especially nice as the entire team is in suits and ties, and Cobb has a great bow tie for himself. You get a really good, clear, detailed look at some of these players that you won't find on their cards, and also great shots of the uniforms styles and equipment. Some of the pictures do look a little odd, and seem almost like a drawing as opposed to an actual photo. Not sure, but they may have done something like for a few of these. Check out the Vean Gregg and Richard Marquard supplements from 11/2/1911 and 11/9/1911 and you'll see what I mean. There's also some super single page team photos as well, one of the Red Sox from 10/10/1912 and then the NY Giants from 10/17/1912 . Another really fantastic image is of Clark Griffith standing on the dugout steps, looking out at the field from the 11/21/1912 issue, it is a fantastic shot and study of him. And possibly the weirdest image in the whole set is of Frank "Ping" Bodie from the 1/11/1912 issue. The way his right arm is in the photo just makes it look strange, and their appears to almost be something like a white border around some parts of his body, especially where the dark uniform is. Kind of makes it look like someone took a different photo of him and then cut it out, leaving a slight border around it in some places, and then attached it to a different background. If you find one you'll quickly see what I mean. The set also contains some portraits of various baseball owners/execs you don't normally see anywhere else, and even has one supplement from the 3/31/1910 issue with four major league umpires in their suits on it. Two from the AL and two from the NL, which includes two HOFers, Bill Klem and Billy Evans. So for someone looking for a contemporary issue of a HOFer during their active career days, you get a two-for-one with this supplement. And for whatever reason, the hardest supplement for me to ever find was of Ray Schalk, another HOFer by the way. No idea why, just never seemed to come across one.

That near set were you were bidding on last year that went for around $12K, depending on the condition and assuming it included all the major stars, that sounds about right to me for what that should have gone for. But now seeing a Jackson by itself going for that much only a year later just blows my mind. This recent ML auction included arguably the 4 most valuable supplements in the set, Cobb, Cobb/Wagner, Jackson, and Wagner, with the Jackson being the outright most valuable. If these do start taking off pricewise now, I'll be very curious to see if these price increases trickle down to the other HOFers in the set, and then to the common players. And another interesting fact/question, is there another set out there that has the likes of Cobb, Wagner, Jackson, Matty, WaJo, Speaker, Joss, and Cy Young in it, all during their playing days? The 1914 Cracker Jacks come close, but they're still missing Joss and Young. The 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1 set is even a little closer, but they're still missing WaJo. It is a heck of a set. And for a lot of the HOFers in it, these are some of their earliest images included in an issued set, aside from just a postcard or single photo.

Great pickups. Are you going to try for the rest of the set now? If so, good luck.

[A2000]

Originally Posted by mouschi

I'm the guy Dan is talking about...I picked up the Cobb/Wagner, shoeless Joe, and wajo/street. I was also the underbidder for the 96/100 run last year. Man was i bummed...I was majorly excited when the singles popped and was able to get my 3 favorites!

This may sound odd to some, but once more people see these, I don't think there's going to be enough supply of them regardless if a slew of them are graded.

When I showed these to people, they had the same reaction as I did: they are jaw droppingly gorgeous. Many have expressed "I've got to get me some of these!" After having seen them for the first time. Before June of 2020, I didn't even know these existed. They are true hidden gems, and I think the psa slabs add "legitimacy" to them for many of that makes sense.

Very nice pickups, there can't be too many of these that survived the last 100 years.

[VintageBen]

Originally Posted by BobC

Hard to say, no real precedent to point to in this case. Both supplements and PCs are treated differently than regular "cards" and not as mainstream. Still, with prices like those M101-2s got in the ML auction, you know it will get someone's attention and raise some interest in the PCs. What would really help the PCs though is if PSA would also grade them. Am not really familiar with either PC issue, are the graded by anyone now?

the PC's are graded by PSA and SGC from my experience collecting them

[T_Hamilton]

Was on vacation and come back to this thread... Certainly helps re-entry as I own one of the three graded PSA 1 Joe Jacksons and my copy is a helluva lot nicer than the one that sold in Memory Lane (no crease or tape stains on the back).

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Thanks Bob! I just use regular clear document holders that fit in a 3-ring binder. Then I found some nice, acid-free 8x11" cardstock pages in a nice chocolate color that matches the supplements. I put one cardstock page in each holder and then put the supplements on the front and back, so 2 per page. They sit nicely without any help, so they're not attached to the cardstock in any way. I only have one of the double-page team supplements so far, and I haven't figured out how I'm going to include it yet. If I can wrap the center seam around the edge of the cardstock so that the front and back show on opposite sides of the page without damaging the supplement, I'll probably end up doing that.



I think that's the entire point...grade doesn't matter, so long as you have a higher set ranking than the next guy! And with so few graded, you can grab that top ranking with a bunch of As and 1s.

Beautiful Bresnahan, BTW! I'm still missing that one.

Hey Dan,

Ahhh, so chocolate colored cardstock pages, was wondering what you were using. I do the exact same thing with the white cardstock pages I got at a comic book store. The supplements fit nice and snug with no holders or adhesives needed, so like you, I have them front and back, two to a page also. As for the double page team photos, I do just what you suggested and have them folded around the cardstock piece and just slip the whole thing into the plastic page holder. That way when you get to the page with a team photo, you see the left side of the team photo on the front, and then the right side of the team photo when you turn it over to the back of the page. Since these double page team photos were originally folded over to begin with, I figured it was no big deal to display this way. I just made sure the edge of the cardstock they are folded around doesn't have a hard, sharp edge to cut into the supplement. You also want to make sure the cardstock piece for these isn't real tight inside the plastic binder and is a little narrower than the plastic binder page itself. That way the supplement doesn't get pushed up real tight against the edge of the cardstock it is folded around and tear. These M101-2s are over 100 years old and made of very fragile paper, so once I got these double page team photos in their binder pages, I leave them alone in the binder and never take them out of their pages and handle them directly, so as not to accidently tear them along the folds, which can be easily done if you're not careful. And if you are like me and display them in your binders in chronological order by their issue dates, you'll be happy to know it works out perfectly so all the double page supplements end up on their own page so you don't have to leave a gap and miss putting a supplement on the back of any pages.


Hey Todd,

And as for the PSA set registry, they haven't even graded half the 100 different M101-2s that are in the set yet. So if I had the inclination, and wanted to waste the money on grading fees, I could send my almost complete set of M101-2s into PSA for grading, and have the de facto #1 M101-2 registry set in the world. Unless someone else with a little nicer condition set has already got theirs in the PSA grading line ahead of me.