Joe Jackson and Pete Rose Should Be HOFers Because...

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BobC

Now if you're saying the Cobb story is nonsense, what part of it? There is no dispute that Cobb hit 5 homers over back-to-back games, that is in the record books so that can't be it. Are you talking about the alleged story where he supposedly told some reporter beforehand he was going to hit home runs to show he could do it?

Yes, that's the part that's nonsense.

Originally Posted by BobC

Now here's the one thing you said that is really annoying. You said it seems odd that a player would intentionally choose to be less successful. Who are you talking about, Cobb or Ichiro, cause you didn't really say which story you find to be nonsense?

Either one though I was specifically referring to Cobb.

Originally Posted by BobC

Probably doesn't matter though because I'm not sure you'd find anyone to agree with you that either of them wasn't already as successful as they could be.

Ah, but clearly that's not true since Cobb was able to hit over .500 with multiple homers per game when he was "trying". So clearly he could have been more successful because there's absolutely no way that the story about him trying wasn't just made up nonsense, right?

Originally Posted by BobC

So are you trying to say neither of them could really hit home runs if they wanted to, because if they could, they wouldn't have wasted their time hitting all the singles they did in their careers and would have been even better than they were? Is that it?!?!?!

Pretty much, yeah.

Originally Posted by BobC

If the player with the all-time highest batting average in the history of baseball, who never hit more than 12 home runs in an entire season, suddenly decides to go for the fences in two games and knocks 5 homers out of the park, it sure ain't dumb luck on his part!!!!!

Clearly he's highly skilled so it's not just luck but... you're trying to say he possessed the inate ability to hit multiple homers per game his entire career and chose not to. Think about that for a second.

Originally Posted by BobC

So are you effectively saying that Cobb chose to not be as successful as he could be?!?!?!?

If he truly had the ability to hit home runs all that time and chose not to then, yeah, he was choosing to be less successful intentionally.

Originally Posted by BobC

If that is the case, I wish he were alive today so you could stand in front of him and say that to his face. What I wouldn't give to be able to see his reaction to that! WOW!

I'd happily do that. Because my line of thinking - that Cobb absolutely maximized what he could do on the field - is far more charitable than your view which is that he chose to not help his team or perform to the best of his ability by intentionally NOT trying to hit the homers he could hit so easily.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Yes, that's the part that's nonsense.


Either one though I was specifically referring to Cobb.


Ah, but clearly that's not true since Cobb was able to hit over .500 with multiple homers per game when he was "trying". So clearly he could have been more successful because there's absolutely no way that the story about him trying wasn't just made up nonsense, right?


Pretty much, yeah.


Clearly he's highly skilled so it's not just luck but... you're trying to say he possessed the inate ability to hit multiple homers per game his entire career and chose not to. Think about that for a second.


If he truly had the ability to hit home runs all that time and chose not to then, yeah, he was choosing to be less successful intentionally.


I'd happily do that. Because my line of thinking - that Cobb absolutely maximized what he could do on the field - is far more charitable than your view which is that he chose to not help his team or perform to the best of his ability by intentionally NOT trying to hit the homers he could hit so easily.

Chris/Tabe,

It must really be nice to pick and choose statements and respond in such a way to twist someone else's words to your advantage, or did you not understand anything I said? And where do you get off saying my view is not "charitable" to Cobb and that I am somehow implying that he chose not to do his best to help his team? I said you'd have a hard time finding anyone to agree with you (not me, YOU) that Cobb and Ichiro weren't already as successful as they could be. So I'm saying that Cobb was as successful as he could be, and you somehow twist it to then say I'm now accusing him of not doing his best to help his team? You're the one that was implying Cobb wasn't doing his best to help his team because he didn't try to hit home runs, which you feel are so much more important than singles. So you think you're smart and going to put me in a Catch-22 huh?

So if I say Cobb could hit home runs if he wanted to, yet chose to hit singles instead, that counters your argument that everyone should think singles are worth so little compared to home runs. But instead of acknowledging that Cobb's opinion and what he does in his career puts down your thinking about the importance of singles, you're just going to ignore and deflect that by accusing me of implying that Cobb wasn't doing the best for his team and for himself then. And you make yourself look like you win the argument by accusing me of putting Cobb down and simply ignoring the fact that he was more for hitting singles.

But if on the other hand Cobb can't really hit home runs whenever he wanted to, aside from an occasional one here and there, then all he ever was is just a singles hitter and I can't use him and his choice to be a singles hitter to counter your argument that singles are worth so little compared to home runs. So then you again make yourself look like you win the argument because I don't have Cobb to counter it, and you still have the satisfaction of accusing me of implying that Cobb didn't do his best for himself or for his team.

Do I have it about right?

Seems you don't have an open mind and will only believe what you want to and you're right and anyone not agreeing with you is wrong. I never said Cobb wasn't the best and most successful he could be. That was what you were implying, and then you tried to turn it around and put it back on me to make yourself look right. The fact that Cobb did what he did in those two games in 1925 clearly shows he could change his swing if he wanted to and try to go for the fences. You keep saying the story isn't true about him telling some sportswriters beforehand that he was going to hit for home runs, and I've said I don't really believe the story either, but the fact is the home runs are in the record books. Whether or not he actually ever told anyone about trying to hit homers, he did it. So when you say you don't believe the story and therefore you don't believe he could hit for homers when he wanted to, then how do you account for and explain the sudden surge in power for just these two games in his entire career? I don't want your deflections, changing the subject, ignoring my direct question, or so on. Give me some logical thoughts, ideas, evidence, explanations, whatever you can come up with to then explain how hit hits 5 homers like that without him suddenly doing something different, and no more of the, "I just don't believe it" nonsense.

It is fairly well known, even today, there is always a lot of debate about whether batters should go for home runs or average (ie: more singles). You hear commentators make mention of guys changing their swings to try and elevate the ball more when they hit it, often at the expense of getting more strike outs, or suddenly popping it up or hitting weak grounders a lot more as well. A lot of times their batting averages will suffer as a result and they can end up going into slumps. All of which is not good, and can take time for a hitter to readjust their swing in some cases to get it back on track so they aren't always just swinging for the fences. Cobb was a great hitter with an almost unparalleled eye and bat control, He was also about 6'1", which was sizable for the players back then, and had some ooomph to his swing. He came up during the dead ball era and had shown he was the best player he could be for years, using his style of batting control and swing to set the all-time major league batting records he did. And then suddenly when he's already into his 30's, MLB decides to change the ball and make it more lively. Now it is something he's not used to and after all his prior years of playing ball, it isn't always easy to adapt and change one's swing and how you do things, especially when you've had the kind of success that Cobb had had, and was still continuing to have as long as he stuck to how he had always done things. It has also been commented on how Cobb was completely unpredictable in his hitting and baserunning, and that was one of his most valuable weapons. And it was also well known how Cobb despised the new live ball era, and Ruth especially with all the attention he was getting from his home runs. All of these could be contributing factors as to why Cobb may have experimented and tried changing his swing, and then went back to what it was almost immediately.

So, regardless of whether or not Cobb did or didn't say something about trying to hit home runs to anyone on the 5th and 6th of May, 1925, it seems pretty obvious that for whatever reason(s) he changed something about the way he batted those two days and went looking for the fences. This could have been part of his trying to be unpredictable, or maybe just an experiment to see if he could do it, and maybe he did just get lucky over those two days trying something different. But Cobb was anything but stupid when it came to baseball and hitting. He probably also knew that if he tried to keep going for the fences that his swing could get messed up and would ultimately start affecting his hitting and average, or maybe it wasn't comfortable and natural for him and he couldn't keep doing it like that. Also, once pitchers figured out that he was possibly changing his swing to try and elevate the ball more, the word would eventually get around and chances are he would start getting pitched to differently. You see it today even how batters first coming into a league oftentimes have an advantage because the pitchers don't know how to pitch to them yet. Whatever the reasoning and thinking, Cobb alone knew the truth, and whatever he did he was going to do for the success of himself and his team. To even think I'd second guess Cobb and imply he didn't do the best he could is utterly ridiculous. You had been the one saying it was so much better to hit homers than singles, which would imply that Cobb should have just tried hitting homers all the time. Cobb was the great hitter he was and knew better than either of us what was best for him and his team. So don't go putting words in my mouth and twisting what I gad said.

And if your logic about homers is so true, then why doesn't every major league player today do nothing but go for the fences? And if you're going to say it is because they also need fielders and the big studs can't all play the field, there are a lot of smaller guys that pound it out as well. So if you like homers so much more than singles and find them so much more important to the game, why don't you write to MLB and ask them to expand the DH rule to the max. Have nine designated batters so you can pick the biggest studs you can find to hit 'em out of the park, and then have eight different guys to play in the field. Would make sense from the team standpoint also because they wouldn't have their batters risking injury as much by playing in the field. Oohh, maybe they should have designated runners for the batters as well so the stud hitters don't injure themselves on the base paths either. That would certainly all make for a more fun game to watch and attend, based on your concept of how important home runs are, right?

I'll leave you with this. Cobb knew the importance of his hitting and singles, and despite all the changes in baseball over the years, there is still a lot today's game has in common with the game from back then. And even in the midst of the recent power surge baseball has seen over the past several years, I still don't feel home runs are as important to the game as you make them out to be. And believe it or not, there is a lot of statistical data to prove what I'm saying is true, even today.

https://www.samford.edu/sports-analy...Hitting-Period

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BobC

which you feel are so much more important than singles.

It's not just me - it's everyone. Home runs are FAAAAAARRRRRR more important than singles. That's absolutely indisputable.

Originally Posted by BobC

So you think you're smart and going to put me in a Catch-22 huh?

If I can, sure

Originally Posted by BobC

So if I say Cobb could hit home runs if he wanted to, yet chose to hit singles instead, that counters your argument that everyone should think singles are worth so little compared to home runs.

No, it doesn't counter my argument. What it does is provide another example of what Ichiro was criticized for throughout his career - prioritizing his average over everything else, to the detriment of his team. Ichiro after his first season (with some exceptions) basically stopped trying to hit the ball hard. This resulted in a guy hitting .320 with great speed somehow only getting 20 doubles a year.

Originally Posted by BobC

But instead of acknowledging that Cobb's opinion and what he does in his career puts down your thinking about the importance of singles

If Cobb truly thought singles were anywhere close to the value of home runs, he was wrong. Period. I can acknowledge that opinion, if he held it, and say it's wrong - because it is.

Originally Posted by BobC

But if on the other hand Cobb can't really hit home runs whenever he wanted to, aside from an occasional one here and there, then all he ever was is just a singles hitter and I can't use him and his choice to be a singles hitter to counter your argument that singles are worth so little compared to home runs. So then you again make yourself look like you win the argument because I don't have Cobb to counter it, and you still have the satisfaction of accusing me of implying that Cobb didn't do his best for himself or for his team.

Do I have it about right?

Originally Posted by BobC

Seems you don't have an open mind and will only believe what you want to and you're right and anyone not agreeing with you is wrong.

Well, naturally I believe anybody who disagrees with me is wrong. Literally every single person on the planet feels that way. If you think something is correct and someone disagrees with you, you think they're wrong until they show you otherwise. If that weren't true, then you are admitting you believe something you know isn't true. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Also, I do have an open mind.

Originally Posted by BobC

how do you account for and explain the sudden surge in power for just these two games in his entire career?

The same way I account for Mark Lemke slugging .708 in the 1991 World Series. Or Dave Stieb throwing back-to-back 26-out no-hitters. Sometimes guys have a couple good days.

Originally Posted by BobC

I don't want your deflections, changing the subject, ignoring my direct question, or so on. Give me some logical thoughts, ideas, evidence, explanations, whatever you can come up with to then explain how hit hits 5 homers like that without him suddenly doing something different, and no more of the, "I just don't believe it" nonsense.

It's simple - he made good contact and the ball went out. He needn't have changed anything for that to happen - he'd hit home runs before.

Originally Posted by BobC

maybe just an experiment to see if he could do it

"Yep, that experiment was really successful. Don't wanna ever do that again!"

Originally Posted by BobC

To even think I'd second guess Cobb and imply he didn't do the best he could is utterly ridiculous.

You're the one who said Cobb could hit homers when he wanted to and still chose not to.

Originally Posted by BobC

You had been the one saying it was so much better to hit homers than singles, which would imply that Cobb should have just tried hitting homers all the time.

If he was able to hit them at will, as the 1925 story claims, yes, he should have tried hitting them all the time - because home runs are BETTER.

Originally Posted by BobC

And if your logic about homers is so true, then why doesn't every major league player today do nothing but go for the fences?

Because not every guy can hit them?

Originally Posted by BobC

So if you like homers so much more than singles and find them so much more important to the game, why don't you write to MLB and ask them to expand the DH rule to the max.

I didn't say I like home runs more - now who's putting words in whose mouth? I said they're more important. I like variety - singles, doubles, stolen bases, home runs, the whole nine yards. But it's pretty obvious which of those is the best outcome for an AB.

Originally Posted by BobC

Have nine designated batters so you can pick the biggest studs you can find to hit 'em out of the park, and then have eight different guys to play in the field.

FWIW, I hate the DH.

Originally Posted by BobC

https://www.samford.edu/sports-analy...Hitting-Period

I mean, if you're going to do an analysis about home runs without controlling for a team's pitching quality, you're going to come up with a flawed analysis that somehow still comes up with the right result (more home runs = more wins), just as that article does.



Alright, just to be clear here:

1) Home runs are better than singles - by a LOT.
2) I don't believe Cobb said anything to any reporters that he could hit homers if he wanted because...
3) I don't believe Cobb could just hit homers whenever he wanted. He was a singles hitter.
4) Because of #3, I don't believe Cobb was intentionally performing worse by not trying to hit more home runs. I believe he recognized his own limitations and performed his best within those. It's nonsensical to believe he made a change in his swing or approach, HIT FIVE HOME RUNS IN TWO DAYS, and STILL decided that that approach wasn't the right way to do things.

[Mark17]

Cobb played in the deadball era, but early in his career he was a home run hitter. In the A.L., here's where he finished on the HR leader board:

1907 second
1909 first
1910 second
1911 second
1912 third

So Cobb finished in the top 3 in home runs 5 of his first 6 full years in the majors. Relative to his time, and his peers, he was an outstanding home run hitter.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Cobb played in the deadball era, but early in his career he was a home run hitter. In the A.L., here's where he finished on the HR leader board:

1907 second
1909 first
1910 second
1911 second
1912 third

So Cobb finished in the top 3 in home runs 5 of his first 6 full years in the majors. Relative to his time, and his peers, he was an outstanding home run hitter.

Misleading - in 1909, for example, all of his home runs were inside-the-park.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Misleading - in 1909, for example, all of his home runs were inside-the-park.

I thought your point was the relative value of singles vs. home runs. I didn't realize there was a difference in the result of a home run that goes over the fence and one that doesn't. Both clear the bases and count the same.

Cobb hit for power in the dead ball era; in his prime years, nobody was busting fences down. Nobody until the Babe.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I thought your point was the relative value of singles vs. home runs. I didn't realize there was a difference in the result of a home run that goes over the fence and one that doesn't. Both clear the bases and count the same.

Cobb hit for power in the dead ball era; in his prime years, nobody was busting fences down. Nobody until the Babe.

Your point was that Cobb had home run power early in his career. I was pointing how misleading those numbers are.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Cobb played in the deadball era, but early in his career he was a home run hitter. In the A.L., here's where he finished on the HR leader board:

1907 second
1909 first
1910 second
1911 second
1912 third

So Cobb finished in the top 3 in home runs 5 of his first 6 full years in the majors. Relative to his time, and his peers, he was an outstanding home run hitter.

Remember that hitting a ball over the outfield fence and hitting a home run were not as well correlated back then. Huge outfields made inside-the-park home runs much more common back then. So yes, Cobb led the league in home runs in 1909 with nine, but all nine were inside-the-park homers. It had as much to do with his speed as his extra-base power.

EDIT: Tabe beat me to it! I'll add that of Cobb's 117 HRs, 46 were inside-the-park variety, which is now and probably forever the AL record. 71 over-the-wall homers in 11,440 ABs.