Joe Jackson and Pete Rose Should Be HOFers Because...

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

All of these guys definitely:
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Alex Rodriguez
Mike Trout
Clayton Kershaw

And then these guys have/had better careers, but I wouldn't necessarily say they were "better players" than Shoeless Joe
Jim McCormick
Albert Pujols
Justin Verlander
Curt Schilling
Bob Caruthers
Adrian Beltre
Max Scherzer

It's hard to compare pitchers to Shoeless Joe Jackson, but comparing the rest is laughable! The guy batted .382 at age 37 in a full season, with 20 triples. He batted .356 lifetime, and is credited with teaching Ty Cobb how to bat. Even in the deadball era, Jackson's OPS is better than anyone on your list except for the steroid abusers.

[bmattioli]

Rose is a Hall of Famer to me and that's all that counts.

[Econteachert205]

I’ll play devil’s advocate. Rose and Jackson belong in because their roles as villains serve so many purposes. They allow for others of questionable morals and ethics to finger wag. They are responsible for some of the best stories in the history of the game. They are modern day Shakespearean tragic figures and their fall is a direct reflection on the times they lived in. The hall itself has little moral authority to deny the greatness of these two men based on their transgressions. Let them in and clearly state what they have accomplished, good and bad. Then please do the same for everyone else.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

I’ll play devil’s advocate. Rose and Jackson belong in because their roles as villains serve so many purposes. They allow for others of questionable morals and ethics to finger wag. They are responsible for some of the best stories in the history of the game. They are modern day Shakespearean tragic figures and their fall is a direct reflection on the times they lived in. The hall itself has little moral authority to deny the greatness of these two men based on their transgressions. Let them in and clearly state what they have accomplished, good and bad. Then please do the same for everyone else.

I've often thought about how maligned Judas and Pilate are. Look what an essential role they played in the birth of Christianity.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

The hall itself has little moral authority to deny the greatness of these two men based on their transgressions. Let them in and clearly state what they have accomplished, good and bad. Then please do the same for everyone else.

It is not the HOF that has judged the players, but rather MLB. If MLB revoked both Rose and Jackson's ban, then they would be eligible for the HOF and would then be judged by the voters as to their worthiness of admission to the Hall.

[darwinbulldog]

Times like these I wonder what we'd spent our time arguing about on the internet if we weren't so committed to believing in some supernatural version of free will wherein people's choices were not caused by the laws of the physical universe.

[clydepepper]

Rose's penalty should be that if he ever gets in, it should be posthumously.

I'll NEVER believe he deserves any better than that.


I would put Bart Giamatti in first!

...along with the three Cubans: Minoso, Tiant & Oliva.


.

[Casey2296]

Well said Bob, history should always be viewed in context.

[ThomasL]

Honestly there is so much gray area about Jackson and his involvement I dont think he is a fair comparison with Rose in these HOF debates.

I think Eddie Cicotte or Hal Chase are better for these debates. Both would be HOFers and their guilt, like Rose, is pretty black and white.

Ya I think Cicotte is a HOFer, better record and ERA than HOFers and as Cummings is in basically bc he was the first real effective curveball pitcher (if not inventor) the same can be said about Cicotte and the knuckleball.

Chase was considered the greatest 1B to play by many even well into Lou Gehrig's career in the 1930s.

[sreader3]

I would like to see the Hall live up to its name — fame not just stats minus the guys they don’t like.

So Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose in, Fred Lindstrom and Rick Ferrell out.

Honestly, I would rather see a Barry Bonds exhibit than a George Kell exhibit.

Just provide the relevant context.

[esd10]

Based on statistics rose and Jackson are hofers and I believe both should be enshrined in the hof.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by robw1959

It's hard to compare pitchers to Shoeless Joe Jackson, but comparing the rest is laughable! The guy batted .382 at age 37 in a full season, with 20 triples. He batted .356 lifetime, and is credited with teaching Ty Cobb how to bat. Even in the deadball era, Jackson's OPS is better than anyone on your list except for the steroid abusers.

Joe Jackson was 32 when he played his last game. Ty Cobb came up years before him.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Joe Jackson was 32 when he played his last game. Ty Cobb came up years before him.

Sorry to mess up on the math, but Cobb has been quoted as saying that he owed much of his batting prowess to imitating the batting swing of Joe Jackson.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Sorry to mess up on the math, but Cobb has been quoted as saying that he owed much of his batting prowess to imitating the batting swing of Joe Jackson.

It was Babe Ruth who said he imitated Joe Jackson, not Cobb.

[glchen]

IMO, both of them should be inducted into the HOF. It's only a matter of time before you see MLB sponsorships w/ the casinos and gambling entities like DraftKings like the other major sports, and then you'll realize how hypocritical baseball is on this matter. There should definitely be a punishment, similar to PEDS, such as first strike is 80 game suspension without pay, etc. However, after that, they should leave it to the voters or Veterans Committee on whether to vote the player in.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by glchen

IMO, both of them should be inducted into the HOF. It's only a matter of time before you see MLB sponsorships w/ the casinos and gambling entities like DraftKings like the other major sports, and then you'll realize how hypocritical baseball is on this matter. There should definitely be a punishment, similar to PEDS, such as first strike is 80 game suspension without pay, etc. However, after that, they should leave it to the voters or Veterans Committee on whether to vote the player in.

I can see some merit in this, but there is a vast difference between betting on a team and taking bribes to throw games.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by robw1959

I can see some merit in this, but there is a vast difference between betting on a team and taking bribes to throw games.

No not really, because in both instances the player/manager is perceived to be purposely trying to lose games. In Jackson's case he took money from gamblers to throw games he played in. The gamblers would bet on those games for Jackson's team to lose and the money they paid him would come out of their winnings. In Rose's case he was a player/manager in games that he personally bet on himself, the bets weren't placed by separate gamblers. The perception then is that if Rose bet against his own team that he would do something to throw the game so he would win the bet and collect the money himself. In either case, the issue and bottom line with both Jackson and Rose is them making money off gambling by them doing something to purposely lose games. It doesn't matter if Rose said he never bet against his team or not, because the perception is that if he tried to make money gambling then why wouldn't he be doing it by purposely losing some games as well as through winning some.

The issue isn't the gambling, it is the fans thinking that the players aren't always trying to win games and baseball turning into the WWE.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Tabe

It was Babe Ruth who said he imitated Joe Jackson, not Cobb.

Well I read it was Cobb, but regardless of which one it was, the point has been well established that Joe Jackson had a great swing, and I doubt if there is anyone yet to be elected to the HOF that was or is a better player than Shoeless Joe.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Well I read it was Cobb, but regardless of which one it was, the point has been well established that Joe Jackson had a great swing, and I doubt if there is anyone yet to be elected to the HOF that was or is a better player than Shoeless Joe.

Barry Bonds, to name just one.

[Frank A]

Neither belong in. Both were aware of what they were doing and just went with it. Jackson I feel somewhat sorry for. Rose was always a wise guy and thought he could do anything he wanted. You follow the rules or else.