Joe Jackson and Pete Rose Should Be HOFers Because...

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Ray Van

So then based on this rule, both Cobb and Speaker (and possibly others) should be kicked out of the HOF.

It's been a while since I read anything on the Cobb and Speaker scandal but from what I remember the two letters that Leonard used as evidence to back up his accusations specifically cleared Cobb of laying down a bet, and they did not mention Speaker at all.

[Ray Van]

Originally Posted by markf31

It's been a while since I read anything on the Cobb and Speaker scandal but from what I remember the two letters that Leonard used as evidence to back up his accusations did not have any word of a fix, they specifically cleared Cobb of laying down a bet, and they did not mention Speaker at all.

Though the letters don't speak of a fix, they do speak of the intent to gamble on a game they were involved in. Cobb and Speaker were temporarily suspended, and then reinstated under dubious circumstances amid a political tug-of-war between Ban Johnson and Judge Landis. Hard to know the real truth with the passage of time and minimal concrete proof.

I guess my wider point is it's so difficult to draw the line on everything from gambling (which supposedly many players did in the teens and twenties) to PEDs (steroids vs greenies being popped like candy). It just seems more than a little hypocritical of the Hall to use certain arguments when convenient and ignore them other times.

All hail Christy Mathewson!

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Ray Van

Though the letters don't speak of a fix, they do speak of the intent to gamble on a game they were involved in. Cobb and Speaker were temporarily suspended, and then reinstated under dubious circumstances amid a political tug-of-war between Ban Johnson and Judge Landis. Hard to know the real truth with the passage of time and minimal concrete proof.

I guess my wider point is it's so difficult to draw the line on everything from gambling (which supposedly many players did in the teens and twenties) to PEDs (steroids vs greenies being popped like candy). It just seems more than a little hypocritical of the Hall to use certain arguments when convenient and ignore them other times.

All hail Christy Mathewson!

But in the case of Rose, he admitted to gambling on the team he managed. And for Jackson, he confessed in sworn grand jury testimony to having accepted $5,000 cash from the gamblers. Those are not arguments of convenience.

[steve B]

It's always interesting how people in a baseball collecting hobby support Rose, who did some pretty crummy things to damage the hobby itself.

Like selling multiple bats as "the bat" from a landmark hit.

And less seriously, but a glimpse of things to come

Sold loads of "game used" bats etc that were only used for one AB or part of one AB.

And amazingly he gets a pass on all that.
Seriously Rose supporters- His card already gets the price it "should" there won't be any big bump if they drop all standards and let him in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGoMCJ8bKtk

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by steve B

It's always interesting how people in a baseball collecting hobby support Rose, who did some pretty crummy things to damage the hobby itself.

Like selling multiple bats as "the bat" from a landmark hit.

And less seriously, but a glimpse of things to come

Sold loads of "game used" bats etc that were only used for one AB or part of one AB.

And amazingly he gets a pass on all that.
Seriously Rose supporters- His card already gets the price it "should" there won't be any big bump if they drop all standards and let him in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGoMCJ8bKtk

On the contrary, their exclusion from the Hall has propped up the prices of their cards to well above what people would otherwise pay for them. They were fine players, but Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan were certainly better.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

On the contrary, their exclusion from the Hall has propped up the prices of their cards to well above what people would otherwise pay for them. They were fine players, but Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan were certainly better.

Collins and Morgan had more significant historical careers than Rose and Jackson? Are you also an Oscar voter?

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Collins and Morgan had more significant historical careers than Rose and Jackson? Are you also an Oscar voter?

+1000 ...the premise is laughable

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Collins and Morgan had more significant historical careers than Rose and Jackson? Are you also an Oscar voter?

He didn't say that Collins and Morgan had more significant historical careers. He said they were better players.

And he's right.

People's fascination with hitting a lot of singles over a (by far) record number of plate appearances never ceases to amaze me. Especially with someone who barely hit .300, had a career OPS under .800, and was a horrible base stealer hitting at the top of the lineup (in an era where your table setter was counted on to always be on the move). Not to mention a subpar outfielder.

But hey, he tried really hard.

Edit: I didn't notice Jackson mentioned there too. Naturally I'm only referring to Rose

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

On the contrary, their exclusion from the Hall has propped up the prices of their cards to well above what people would otherwise pay for them. They were fine players, but Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan were certainly better.

That's inaccurate IMO

[G1911]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

On the contrary, their exclusion from the Hall has propped up the prices of their cards to well above what people would otherwise pay for them. They were fine players, but Eddie Collins and Joe Morgan were certainly better.

I think this is a good point. Look at the price gap between Jackson and Speaker. Was Jackson a better player? No, they are very similar bats through their age 32 seasons (when Jackson's career ends) plus Tris was a legendary glove. Look at Cicotte vs. Vic Willis or any other similar pitcher. Gandil far outsells his talent level too. Being the villain appears to do more for one's prices than being the good guy. I'm not sure why; I'd chalk it up to "any name recognition is good" except these guys outsell other famous players (anyone buying Jackson knows Collins well) and HOFers every collector knows.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think this is a good point. Look at the price gap between Jackson and Speaker. Was Jackson a better player? No, they are very similar bats through their age 32 seasons (when Jackson's career ends) plus Tris was a legendary glove. Look at Cicotte vs. Vic Willis or any other similar pitcher. Gandil far outsells his talent level too. Being the villain appears to do more for one's prices than being the good guy. I'm not sure why; I'd chalk it up to "any name recognition is good" except these guys outsell other famous players (anyone buying Jackson knows Collins well) and HOFers every collector knows.

Look at how popular Hal Chase is, even among many on this forum. The guy was more despicable than any of the Black Sox, or Pete Rose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought there was pretty good evidence Cobb and Speaker bet at one point.