Mia Hamm RC in Goldin Auctions

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by fkm_bky

Besides the fact Haaland is the next great player of the worlds most popular sport. You're likely getting a lot of global bids for soccer/futbol cards in these auctions compared to baseball.

Bill

Fair enough.... but where did the market suddenly come from??

Baseball and other sport cards have been collected primarily in Canada and the US for well over a century, with most male youths exposed to varying degrees at some point. This has allowed "the market" to grow and prosper, with valuation following once demand was created.

There has never been a LARGE market outside North America for sports cards, but all of sudden, countries with absolutely zero history of collecting cards, and people that have never been exposed are feverishly collecting out of thin air? In large numbers?? Really??

What history of collecting is there for soccer or NASCAR cards that people are currently spending huge sums of money on them? They went from almost no value to priceless overnight??
It makes no sense, hence it's NOT primarily collectors, but those just trying to make money off the hobby buying these and inflating the values.... nothing more.

[aro13]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Fair enough.... but where did the market suddenly come from??

Baseball and other sport cards have been collected primarily in Canada and the US for well over a century, with most male youths exposed to varying degrees at some point. This has allowed "the market" to grow and prosper, with valuation following once demand was created.

There has never been a LARGE market outside North America for sports cards, but all of sudden, countries with absolutely zero history of collecting cards, and people that have never been exposed are feverishly collecting out of thin air? In large numbers?? Really??

What history of collecting is there for soccer or NASCAR cards that people are currently spending huge sums of money on them? They went from almost no value to priceless overnight??
It makes no sense, hence it's NOT primarily collectors, but those just trying to make money off the hobby buying these and inflating the values.... nothing more.

The market for baseball cards might be limited to North America and Japan but for sports like basketball where there is a huge global market and hockey, which has a huge European market it is different. Soccer would attract all collecting markets. Not just North America.

Personally, I don't think the Hamm card is ultimately that rare (I believe S.I. circulation is around 950,000) and as mentioned PSA grading of S.I. for kids is even more inconsistent than their general grading. So that particular price seems way out of line. But women's sports and interest in women's sports is taking off.

The supply for RC's of future HOFers and all-time greats like Diana Taurasi, Sue Bird, Breanna Stewart, Megan Rapinoe, Serena Williams, Flo-Jo, Simone Biles etc. is very limited compared to what the demand ultimately could end up being.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by aro13

The market for baseball cards might be limited to North America and Japan but for sports like basketball where there is a huge global market and hockey, which has a huge European market it is different. Soccer would attract all collecting markets. Not just North America.

Personally, I don't think the Hamm card is ultimately that rare (I believe S.I. circulation is around 950,000) and as mentioned PSA grading of S.I. for kids is even more inconsistent than their general grading. So that particular price seems way out of line. But women's sports and interest in women's sports is taking off.

The supply for RC's of future HOFers and all-time greats like Diana Taurasi, Sue Bird, Breanna Stewart, Megan Rapinoe, Serena Williams, Flo-Jo, Simone Biles etc. is very limited compared to what the demand ultimately could end up being.

That's my point... traditionally, there are no "markets" for sports cards outside North America, so where did the demand suddenly come from and how did it sprout instantly out of thin air??

With all due respect, it's impossible... common sense says it's investors and speculators.... and almost zero "collectors".

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

That's my point... traditionally, there are no "markets" for sports cards outside North America, so where did the demand suddenly come from and how did it sprout instantly out of thin air??

With all due respect, it's impossible... common sense says it's investors and speculators.... and almost zero "collectors".

It sprouted because people (all around the world) see a Tom Brady card selling for $2 million+, and wonder why there can't also be a liquid market for dominant and recognizable athletes in the worldwide sports arena.

I love the NFL and have almost zero interest in soccer, but to be honest, nobody gives a rat's ass about the NFL, outside the U.S.. It's strictly a regional sport. No more popular around the world then Rugby or Cricket.

.............and also, people outside the U.S., have been producing and collecting an untold number of cards for just as long as we have. They just hadn't com-modified it quite to the level as we have since the 80's.

But as far as pure "collecting" goes....the Brits were preserving their cards in albums and pages pages, pumping out card catalogues, and enjoying them for their aesthetic value, looooonnnng before we were.

It's why lots of 20's and 30's sets from that part of the world can still be found in tip top condition today. The Germans were also huge card producers/collectors.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Fair enough.... but where did the market suddenly come from??

Baseball and other sport cards have been collected primarily in Canada and the US for well over a century, with most male youths exposed to varying degrees at some point. This has allowed "the market" to grow and prosper, with valuation following once demand was created.

There has never been a LARGE market outside North America for sports cards, but all of sudden, countries with absolutely zero history of collecting cards, and people that have never been exposed are feverishly collecting out of thin air? In large numbers?? Really??

What history of collecting is there for soccer or NASCAR cards that people are currently spending huge sums of money on them? They went from almost no value to priceless overnight??
It makes no sense, hence it's NOT primarily collectors, but those just trying to make money off the hobby buying these and inflating the values.... nothing more.

There is no comparison at all in terms of worldwide fan interest between NASCAR and Formula 1. Formula 1 makes NASCAR teams and drivers look like paupers. -- and Lewis Hamilton in particular transcends his sport. Hamilton has over 20 millions followers in Instagram, his own clothing line and his own chain of restaurants. He wanted a $50M salary for this year -- and he got it.

NASCAR in akin to American football in that is it primarily popular in only one country in the world; Formula 1 is akin to soccer in that its appeal is international. Every F1 race draws as many viewers as the NFL's Super Bowl.

Fprmula 1 drivers are superstars in Europe and South America and Asia. Go look at all the $5,000+ Hamilton cards that have sold on eBay just in the short time since the Topps F1 cards have been released. His top autograph cards are well into five figures. His Topps 1/1 cards will be six figures, IMO, if they go to auction. Formula 1 has also been experiencing a surge in U.S. interest due to the Netflix series covering the sport.

There is not any precedent for a mainstream, international Formula 1 set like what Topps has out right now.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

There is no comparison at all in terms of worldwide fan interest between NASCAR and Formula 1. Formula 1 makes NASCAR teams and drivers look like paupers. -- and Lewis Hamilton in particular transcends his sport. Hamilton has over 20 millions followers in Instagram, his own clothing line and his own chain of restaurants. He wanted a $50M salary for this year -- and he got it.

NASCAR in akin to American football in that is it primarily popular in only one country in the world; Formula 1 is akin to soccer in that its appeal is international. Every F1 race draws as many viewers as the NFL's Super Bowl.

Fprmula 1 drivers are superstars in Europe and South America and Asia. Go look at all the $5,000+ Hamilton cards that have sold on eBay just in the short time since the Topps F1 cards have been released. His top autograph cards are well into five figures. His Topps 1/1 cards will be well into six figures, IMO, if they go to auction. Formula 1 has also been experiencing a surge in U.S. interest due to the Netflix series covering the sport.

I put a very nice Jackie Stewart rookie on ebay recently and it sold for about 20 dollars, I was expecting much more.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I put a very nice Jackie Stewart rookie on ebay recently and it sold for about 20 dollars, I was expecting much more.

Mario Andretti, who can make a serious case as the greatest racer of all time, doesn't attract nearly the prices that current F1 drivers do. Like I wrote earlier, Hamilton transcends his sport in modern times.

As far as retired or deceased drivers go, Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher blow away Jackie Stewart in terms of prices.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Mario Andretti, who can make a serious case as the greatest racer of all time, doesn't attract nearly the prices that current F1 drivers do. Like I wrote earlier, Hamilton transcends his sport in modern times.

As far as retired or deceased drivers go, Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher blow away Jackie Stewart in terms of prices.

From what I've seen Andretti rookies are fairly pricey?

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From what I've seen Andretti rookies are fairly pricey?

His 1969 Panini rookie is fairly pricey (and his 1970 Panini to a lesser extent), but almost all of his other cards are pretty cheap. Even his 1969 Panini seems cheap IMO relative to his place in the sport when you look at what the current Topps F1 cards are going for. Modern F1 drivers are pretty difficult to get autographs from (especially the top drivers), and Mario still signs for free through the mail on all kinds of items.

With this current Topps release, every driver on the roster has autograph cards in the set.

There was no option at all when it came to getting an autographed Michael Schumacher or Ayrton Senna card unless a collector had the foresight and luck decades ago.

[egri]

Isn’t this the same Lewis Hamilton who tried to trademark the name ‘Hamilton’, then sued Hamilton Watch Co. over it?

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by egri

Isn’t this the same Lewis Hamilton who tried to trademark the name ‘Hamilton’, then sued Hamilton Watch Co. over it?

Yes.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I put a very nice Jackie Stewart rookie on ebay recently and it sold for about 20 dollars, I was expecting much more.

It is interesting what captures collectors imaginations and what doesn't. Sebastian Vettel is a still active 4 time F1 Champ, and nobody seems to care about him. Max Verstappen hasn't won a title yet, and everybody is in love with him. Obvious recency bias. I'd say that even completely unproven drivers like George Russell and Mick Schumacher, elicit more attention then Vettel does.

Niki Lauda is a 3 time champ, has a very compelling story, and was a featured figure in a very well received big budget film. His cards when found, don't sell for much at all.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It is interesting what captures collectors imaginations and what doesn't. Sebastian Vettel is a still active 4 time F1 Champ, and nobody seems to care about him. Max Verstappen hasn't won a title yet, and everybody is in love with him. Obvious recency bias. I'd say that even completely unproven drivers like George Russell and Mick Schumacher, elicit more attention then Vettel does.

Niki Lauda is a 3 time champ, has a very compelling story, and was a featured figure in a very well received big budget film. His cards when found, don't sell for much at all.

That is an interesting observation about Vettel and Lauda in the hobby.

Verstappen definitely seems to be second behind Hamilton in terms of the Topps prices, with Russell not far behind. I guess that is because the future appears limitless for each of them. Verstappen looks like a good bet to win the WDC this year at age 23 and Russell is seen as a future WDC if he does move to Mercedes. Schumacher also has the pedigree and is an F2 champion.

On a related collector's note, even autograph cards of Nikita Mazepin in the Topps sets have been going dirt cheap. LOL

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

That is an interesting observation about Vettel and Lauda in the hobby.

Verstappen definitely seems to be second behind Hamilton in terms of the Topps prices, with Russell not far behind. I guess that is because the futures appear limitless for each of them. Verstappen looks like a good bet to win the WDC this year at age 23 and Russell is seen as a future WDC if he does move to Mercedes. Schumacher also has the pedigree and is an F2 champion.

On a related collector's note, even autograph cards of Nikita Mazepin in the Topps sets have been going dirt cheap. LOL

Ha Ha, nobody thinks much of Mazepin. Especially his own team-mate, Schumacher.

Mazepin is a cautionary tale of what can go wrong in F1 if you have a backer and too much money.

Sometimes it's not "The Best", that rises into those 20 seats on the course.

Lance Stroll has a similar story, but he at least holds his own as a competent driver.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Stock car drivers may be second class hobby citizens compared to F1, but I can't imagine I will ever like an auto racing card better than this.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Ha Ha, nobody thinks much of Mazepin. Especially his own team-mate, Schumacher.

Mazepin is a cautionary tale of what can go wrong in F1 if you have a backer and too much money.

Sometimes it's not "The Best", that rises into those 20 seats on the course.

Lance Stroll has a similar story, but he at least holds his own as a competent driver.

Oh, I am familiar with Mazepin and his back story. LOL. I have been listening to some of the F1 podcasts and the hand wringing about three of the 20 seats in F1 currently filled by sons of billionaires.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

There is no comparison at all in terms of worldwide fan interest between NASCAR and Formula 1. Formula 1 makes NASCAR teams and drivers look like paupers. -- and Lewis Hamilton in particular transcends his sport. Hamilton has over 20 millions followers in Instagram, his own clothing line and his own chain of restaurants. He wanted a $50M salary for this year -- and he got it.

NASCAR in akin to American football in that is it primarily popular in only one country in the world; Formula 1 is akin to soccer in that its appeal is international. Every F1 race draws as many viewers as the NFL's Super Bowl.

Fprmula 1 drivers are superstars in Europe and South America and Asis. Go look at all the $5,000+ Hamilton cards that have sold on eBay just in the short time since the Topps F1 cards have been released. His top autograph cards are well into five figures. Formula 1 has also been experiencing a surge in U.S. interest due to the Netflix series covering the sport.

Yeah, that's how popular THE SPORT is.... but the collecting of cards traditionally for these sports is non-existent.

All people can say is how popular these sports are, which has always been the case to different people in different parts of the world... but the SPORT card market in any non North American locale has never been popular until now.

Also as mentioned, it's true the English were feverish card producers and collectors, but primarily not of SPORTS cards.... that has never been the case.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Yeah, that's how popular THE SPORT is.... but the collecting of cards traditionally for these sports is non-existent.

All people can say is how popular these sports are, which has always been the case to different people in different parts of the world... but the SPORT card market in any non North American locale has never been popular until now.

Also as mentioned, it's true the English were feverish card producers and collectors, but primarily not of SPORTS cards.... that has never been the case.

You can say it was non-existent (which is not really true), but there has also never been a product marketed and as mainstream as Topps is. Past F1 cards have been smaller releases and very hard to find outside individual countries. Hamilton has several different cards that are all but impossible to find that predate these Topps cards be many years.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Also as mentioned, it's true the English were feverish card producers and collectors, but primarily not of SPORTS cards.... that has never been the case.

Sorry man, that's not true at all. They made tons of sports cards. Just not American Sports Cards...........from the Big 4 American Sports anyways. Plenty of Sports Cards of Americans who participated in more International Sports.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Sorry man, that's not true at all. They made tons of sports cards. Just not American Sports Cards...........from the Big 4 American Sports anyways. Plenty of Sports Cards of Americans who participated in more International Sports.

One of my favorites.

[Bobbycee]

Hamm was so good, she ruined Garciaparra.

[steve B]

Australia at least at one time had a thriving basketball card market. Including one or maybe two local producers of Australian basketball league cards.

And Upper deck made international editions in the early 90's.

If only I could think of a foreign company that made big bucks on cards or stickers... Oh yeah, Panini.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Sorry man, that's not true at all. They made tons of sports cards. Just not American Sports Cards...........from the Big 4 American Sports anyways. Plenty of Sports Cards of Americans who participated in more International Sports.

It is true....

There is a difference between "producing" and "collecting".

What are the VALUES of those boxing, golf, etc cards produced by the English traditionally? Peanuts. Especially compared to cards produced in North America.

Why? Because so few collect them. This isn't complicated.... IF there were many British collectors, the values over time would have increased, just like sports cards in North America. But almost no one there collectors or cares, hence low values for vintage English "sports" cards.

It's illogical for there to be a huge plethora of British card collectors, but despite this, the prices on vintage British sports cards stay extremely modest? ..... to the point it appears that no one collects them?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

It is true....

There is a difference between "producing" and "collecting".

What are the VALUES of those boxing, golf, etc cards produced by the English traditionally? Peanuts. Especially compared to cards produced in North America.

Why? Because so few collect them. This isn't complicated.... IF there were many British collectors, the values over time would have increased, just like sports cards in North America. But almost no one there collectors or cares, hence low values for vintage English "sports" cards.

It's illogical for there to be a huge plethora of British card collectors, but despite this, the prices on vintage British sports cards stay extremely modest? ..... to the point it appears that no one collects them?

That's so incredibly wrong it's hard to even respond.

Collecting Tobacco and other cards was big enough in England that they had a national society in 1938, And had excellent and fairly comprehensive catalogs by the 1940's. Lots of catalogs some detailing the issues of a single manufacturer. Wills produced their first cards in 1896, and continued at least into the 1960's. (And may still produce cards? I'm not up on their modern stuff)

Their collecting culture is geared towards complete sets in very nice condition. Not difficult, as the sets are generally small, 50 cards.

And they were saved in huge quantities.
That's why they're inexpensive, there are still loads of very nice complete sets around.

The collecting seems to be more of a "collect everything" type like Burdick.

https://card-world.co.uk/

[Ray Van]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's so incredibly wrong it's hard to even respond.

Collecting Tobacco and other cards was big enough in England that they had a national society in 1938, And had excellent and fairly comprehensive catalogs by the 1940's. Lots of catalogs some detailing the issues of a single manufacturer. Wills produced their first cards in 1896, and continued at least into the 1960's. (And may still produce cards? I'm not up on their modern stuff)

Their collecting culture is geared towards complete sets in very nice condition. Not difficult, as the sets are generally small, 50 cards.

And they were saved in huge quantities.
That's why they're inexpensive, there are still loads of very nice complete sets around.

The collecting seems to be more of a "collect everything" type like Burdick.

https://card-world.co.uk/

+1

And yes please can we move soccer out of the testing forum???

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's so incredibly wrong it's hard to even respond.

Collecting Tobacco and other cards was big enough in England that they had a national society in 1938, And had excellent and fairly comprehensive catalogs by the 1940's. Lots of catalogs some detailing the issues of a single manufacturer. Wills produced their first cards in 1896, and continued at least into the 1960's. (And may still produce cards? I'm not up on their modern stuff)

Their collecting culture is geared towards complete sets in very nice condition. Not difficult, as the sets are generally small, 50 cards.

And they were saved in huge quantities.
That's why they're inexpensive, there are still loads of very nice complete sets around.

The collecting seems to be more of a "collect everything" type like Burdick.

https://card-world.co.uk/

With all due respect, what has any of this to do with vintage English SPORTS CARD collectors, and how many there are now?
Please try and stay in context...

And no.... they're affordable because very few collect them. It's simple.

.... I googled "vintage sports card shop London England" and three retailers came up, NONE of which sell vintage sports cards.
Additionally, checking eBay and entering "vintage soccer card" and then checking the sold listings.... not one single pre-1950 English card showed up as sold, just a couple small SETS selling in the extremely modest $8 to $20 range.
No surprise here...

[Ray Van]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Yeah, that's how popular THE SPORT is.... but the collecting of cards traditionally for these sports is non-existent.

All people can say is how popular these sports are, which has always been the case to different people in different parts of the world... but the SPORT card market in any non North American locale has never been popular until now.

Also as mentioned, it's true the English were feverish card producers and collectors, but primarily not of SPORTS cards.... that has never been the case.

Sorry but I do feel the need to respond to this completely ignorant comment. As mentioned by other posters, the English (and German, Italian, Spanish, Brazilian, Argentinian, Australian, etc.) were collectors of sports cards. Maybe just not the sports you follow, but Soccer, Cricket, Golf, Aussie Rules Football, etc, have been collected almost as long as baseball cards by international collectors. It's true these had not been commodified as much as North American "Big 4" sports cards, but they have always been there and been collected. As a soccer card and memorabilia collector of 30+ years I can attest to the small group of collectors that has now exploded over the past few years. Are there speculators just like in any sport? Of course, and maybe even more than most other sports. Soccer and Basketball have seen the fastest growth in recent years, and the fact that they are probably the two most popular global team sports has been a significant contributing factor.

Now, would I pay $34K for the Mia Hamm SI card? No, but I don't have the monetary means nor the interest in that specific card. Just like any auction, all it takes is two interested parties and the bidding goes from there. It's all about supply and demand, so you could insert [Wagner, Mantle, Gretzky, Jordan, Trout, Brady, Pokemon] and build the same argument. $5.2MM for 1952 Mantle or $3.25MM for T206 Wagner is simply the same economic and emotional situation playing out, albeit at a completely different price level.

True, the value of soccer and some of these other sports cards are peanuts compared to "North American cards", but I can assure you they are catching up quickly. Bloomer, Meredith, Dean, Matthews, Puskas, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Zidane, Messi, Ronaldo ... are setting new records every month. The soccer card market is maybe 20 years behind Baseball, but it is there and growing. Trust me, there are lots of people who collect these and lots of people who care about them.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Ray Van

Sorry but I do feel the need to respond to this completely ignorant comment. As mentioned by other posters, the English (and German, Italian, Spanish, Brazilian, Argentinian, Australian, etc.) were collectors of sports cards. Maybe just not the sports you follow, but Soccer, Cricket, Golf, Aussie Rules Football, etc, have been collected almost as long as baseball cards by international collectors. It's true these had not been commodified as much as North American "Big 4" sports cards, but they have always been there and been collected. As a soccer card and memorabilia collector of 30+ years I can attest to the small group of collectors that has now exploded over the past few years. Are there speculators just like in any sport? Of course, and maybe even more than most other sports. Soccer and Basketball have seen the fastest growth in recent years, and the fact that they are probably the two most popular global team sports has been a significant contributing factor.

Now, would I pay $34K for the Mia Hamm SI card? No, but I don't have the monetary means nor the interest in that specific card. Just like any auction, all it takes is two interested parties and the bidding goes from there. It's all about supply and demand, so you could insert [Wagner, Mantle, Gretzky, Jordan, Trout, Brady, Pokemon] and build the same argument. $5.2MM for 1952 Mantle or $3.25MM for T206 Wagner is simply the same economic and emotional situation playing out, albeit at a completely different price level.

True, the value of soccer and some of these other sports cards are peanuts compared to "North American cards", but I can assure you they are catching up quickly. Bloomer, Meredith, Dean, Matthews, Puskas, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Zidane, Messi, Ronaldo ... are setting new records every month. The soccer card market is maybe 20 years behind Baseball, but it is there and growing. Trust me, there are lots of people who collect these and lots of people who care about them.

"I can attest to the SMALL group of collectors" ....says it all.

That's all I said... some of you want to live in a fantasy world where there are supposedly tons of card collectors in countries like England to rationalize the ridiculous and sudden climb in card values... but if that were true, values of English cards would have LONG been increasing... but they have not. You said it yourself, the soccer card market is 20 years behind baseball... so if there are truly numerous collectors of these cards, there should have been a constant - not meteoric - increase throughout that time... but that has never happened. WHY?

[Ray Van]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

"I can attest to the SMALL group of collectors" ....says it all.

That's all I said... some of you want to live in a fantasy world where there are supposedly tons of card collectors in countries like England to rationalize the ridiculous and sudden climb in card values... but if that were true, values of English cards would have LONG been increasing... but they have not. You said it yourself, the soccer card market is 20 years behind baseball... so if there are truly numerous collectors of these cards, there should have been a constant - not meteoric - increase throughout that time... but that has never happened. WHY?

I might be oversimplifying things, but I have observed soccer card collectors to traditionally be set collectors and not focused on individual players - that is, up until the past couple of years when things changed. That could fit both sides of the argument - lots of collectors and suppressed values. As an example, 1906 Ogden's Football Club Colours: sellers used to offer each team card for the same price. But now that collectors have identified Steve Bloomer as the player pictured on the Derby County card, that one card is 100x or more valuable than a common card from the set. You could argue that this is driven by the relatively recent valuation-separation between commons and stars by collectors of this sport.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Ray Van

I might be oversimplifying things, but I have observed soccer card collectors to traditionally be set collectors and not focused on individual players - that is, up until the past couple of years when things changed. That could fit both sides of the argument - lots of collectors and suppressed values. As an example, 1906 Ogden's Football Club Colours: sellers used to offer each team card for the same price. But now that collectors have identified Steve Bloomer as the player pictured on the Derby County card, that one card is 100x or more valuable than a common card from the set. You could argue that this is driven by the relatively recent valuation-separation between commons and stars by collectors of this sport.

This is most definitely the case. Back in the mid to later 90's I was mail ordering from The London Cigarette Card Company, singles of Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Jesse Owens, Joe Louis, and even occasionally Bobby Jones (who even back then was selling for a bit of a premium) and others, for the same price as any other common in the sets.

Of course, that eventually dried out once the internet made more people (especially in the U.S.), aware of these issues.

....and BTW The London Cigarette Card Company, along with Murray's Cards, were bigger then any Sports or Trading Card dealer in the U.S.., until well into the 80's, including the Larry Fritch's and Renata Galasso's.