Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[sdimag]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Francis Joseph "Lefty" O'Doul is one of my favorite guys in Baseball. It mystifies me, why Lefty O'Doul is not in the BB Hall of Fame.
For starters, Lefty's career BA is an outstanding .349 over a Major League career that spanned 11 years. His hitting ability is high-lighted by a .398 BA with
254 Hits, 32 HR's, 122 RBI's, while playing for the Phillies in 1929. He followed that up with a .383 BA in 1930. I could continue with all the reasons why he
should have been enshrined in the Hall of Fame, but I leave it to you to read his SABR write-up...... https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/lefty-odoul/

Between his playing years, and his years as a Manager in the PCL, Lefty is a tremendous example of Baseball at it's best.

Let's hear your stories of some of the BB players who you feel have been neglected to be in inducted in Baseball's Hall of Fame.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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O’Doul is in the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame. An unofficial ambassador for baseball, he brought the DiMaggio’s and later The Babe and other stars to Japan!He managed Joe and Dom when they started out with the Seals.Dom credited Lefty for making him a major league hitter! Lefty brought his teams to Japan postwar which definitely help the US/Japan relations.

[jchcollins]

I think Minnie Minoso is probably the most glaring omission. Hodges is likely in that conversation as well.

With everyone else, different people have their personal favorites. I'd like to see Tiant get in. And Steve Garvey - though I understand why he's not in - relatively weak for a 1B in career homers, not a great OBP - low WAR if you want to evaluate him on advanced stats - but there is a decent argument to be made he was the best 1B in the NL for about a decade. He has everything else - the ASG appearances, the awards...

[abothebear]

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

What’s your favorite team?

[G1911]

Went through each name and sorted them by what I think their category is. Added some new ones, ignoring steroid guys as the argument against them has nothing to do with objective discussion of performance or ranking among pioneers, but is a purely ethical argument that seems a separate issue from the analytical arguments.

Players I would vote for as a no-brainer, whose exclusion from the Hall is a detriment to the Hall
Ross Barnes
James Creighton
Minnie Minoso
Curt Schilling


Players I would vote for and think clearly belong, but see a reasoned argument against:
Bill Dahlen
Gil Hodges
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Fred McGriff


Players I could go either way on, borderline yes or borderline no:
Dick Allen (not mentioned yet)
Albert Belle
Lance Berkman (not mentioned yet)
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Bob Caruthers
Rocky Colavito
Pebbly Jack Glasscock (not mentioned yet)
Tommy John
Jim Kaat - Poor ERA compared to league, lots and lots of consistent innings
Don Mattingly (surprisingly not mentioned yet)
Jim McCormick (not mentioned yet)
Tony Mullane (not mentioned yet)
Tony Oliva
Dave Parker
Cannonball Redding - what I have seen of his surviving numbers seems to me to suggest he is not a HOFer, but the numbers from his leagues are incomplete and dubious.
Luis Tiant
George Van Haltren
Lou Whitaker


Players I think are below Hall standards but I see how a reasonable argument could be made:
Tommy Bridges
Dave Concepcion
Johnny Damon
Carlos Delgado
Larry Doyle
Jim Edmonds
Darrel Evans
Dwight Evans
George Foster
Steve Garvey
Kirk Gibson
Bob Grich
Dummy Hoy
Andruw Jones
Johnny Kling
Sherry Magee
Thurman Munson (not mentioned yet)
Dale Murphy
Lefty O’Doul - Japan & PCL has never before been a factor for consideration.
Buck O’Neil - Nostalgia in and of itself is not enough.
Billy Pierce
Vada Pinson
Ed Reulbach - short career and his peak is not high enough to compensate
Johann Santana
Dave Stieb - About equal to Morris, but let’s not make that mistake twice.
Joe Wood


Players for whom I do not see a reasoned argument, are not serious candidates:
Jack Coombs - 2,300 IP and an ERA worse than the league average. 1 excellent season is not a HOFer
Mike Donlin
Johnny Grubb - This must be a tongue in cheek joke
Chet Lemon- This must be a tongue in cheek joke
Firpo Marberry
Clyde Milan - No HOF milestones, 9% better bat than league, good player but there is no way he is HOF
Lance Parish
Dummy Taylor - Less than 2,000 IP, 116 wins, ERA 7% better than league. Over 100 pitchers belong ahead of him.
Cecil Travis - Would be first player elected to the Hall of Fame specifically for what he did not accomplish rather than for what he did.

[Mike D.]

Mention of Mattingly and Garvey make me think another thread - “Guys who felt like Hall of Famers during their careers, but now are unlikely to be inducted”.

Guess you’d need to specify “non-steroids addition” to keep the list of reasonable size.

Garvey, Mattingly, Murphy…maybe Joe Carter?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Mention of Mattingly and Garvey make me think another thread - “Guys who felt like Hall of Famers during their careers, but now are unlikely to be inducted”.

Guess you’d need to specify “non-steroids addition” to keep the list of reasonable size.

Garvey, Mattingly, Murphy…maybe Joe Carter?

I would add Dave Parker, Al Oliver, Jim Edmonds, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden and maybe David Cone to that list.

And if they fail to make it to Cooperstown in the future, definitely Joe Mauer and Buster Posey (looking ahead).

[David W]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Mention of Mattingly and Garvey make me think another thread - “Guys who felt like Hall of Famers during their careers, but now are unlikely to be inducted”.

Guess you’d need to specify “non-steroids addition” to keep the list of reasonable size.

Garvey, Mattingly, Murphy…maybe Joe Carter?

It is the Hall of FAME, not great. As a child of the 1970's and 80's, no baseball players were more famous than Garvey, Mattingly, and Murphy. They also had borderline great careers, but they were FAMOUS. Dave Parker also fits this category. Joe Carter.... decent career but only famous for 1 game.

As a midwest Cardinal fan, Garvey was famous, but became infamous for stealing the MVP from Lou Brock in 1974. Murphy was a 2 time MVP, and benefitted from the boom in cable TV, led by Ted Turner, owner of the Braves.
Mattingly, MVP and Yankee legend, back injuries slowed him down. Parker was an MVP, and famous for 2 great throws in an all star game, plus on one of the legendary teams, We Are Family 1979 Pirates.

If the 1984 Tigers had been able to sustain that greatness, rather than just that 1 magical year, I think Lou Whitaker (who should be in anyway, and Lance Parrish (not sure on him) would also be in.

I'd put these guys pictured in the HOF.

[MooseDog]

Bay Area Candidates

1) Lefty O'Doul
2) Will Clark
3) Vida Blue
4) Jose Canseco
5) Billy Martin

O'Doul undoubtedly should be in. Clark is kid of Dale Murphy level. Blue and Canseco put up numbers equal to or better than other borderline HOF candidates but have drugs (Blue) and steroid (Canseco) scandals hanging over their heads.

Billy Martin should be in at the very least as a manager.

[brianclat11]

I’ll second the vote for Dave Concepción of the 70s Big Red machine. For my money, one of the best defensive shortstops that ever played the game. His connection with Joe Morgan at 2nd was special. He could also handle the bat but kind of played second fiddle to the superstars on that team. The fact he hung around a little bit longer on the Reds when they went through some lean times didn’t help.

[ThomasL]

Im a small Hall guy so I will take someone out if Im putting someone in...

Putting in:

Buck O'Neil
Lefty O'Doul
-both based on a solid careers and stellar post career involvement and contributions.

Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
-there are already steroid guys in so lets not be hypocritical here, these two should have been no brainers (3000 hits/500 HR guy and a 600 HR guy) had it not been for steriods

Taking out:
Rabbit Maranville
Jesse Haines
Bud Selig
Candy Cummings

(Schilling should be in and probably will get in so Im not listing him)

[Knoxy24]

Dave Parker was solid at the plate and in the field....others would include

Keith Hernandez
Gary Sheffield

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Knoxy24

Dave Parker was solid at the plate and in the field....others would include

Keith Hernandez
Gary Sheffield

Sheffield has the PED problem, right?
Parker is another one of those guys who, to me anyhow, seemed better at the time than the metrics showed in hindsight.

[esd10]

Jake daubert a premier 1st baseman of the deadball era who belongs in the hall of fame.
August herrmann consider one of the fathers of the world series and made peace between the nl and al by giving up sam crawford to Detroit and Tony mullane.

[Mike D.]

Shouldn’t the HOF be just starting pitchers, shortstops, and center fielders? I mean, those guys could play anywhere, and everyone else wasn’t good enough to play there.

If being a modern closer is so easy, why have there been only 30 of them to amass even 300 saves (and only 12 with 350)?

Rivera was the best of all time…but just because you saw Babe Ruth doesn’t mean you shouldn’t appreciate the greatness of Lou Gehrig.

[abothebear]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Shouldn’t the HOF be just starting pitchers, shortstops, and center fielders? I mean, those guys could play anywhere, and everyone else wasn’t good enough to play there.

Absolutely, if fielding was the only thing they did.

[abothebear]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

If being a modern closer is so easy, why have there been only 30 of them to amass even 300 saves (and only 12 with 350)? .

Because saves are so insignificant teams didn’t strategize to amass them until recent changes in the game. Because designating one guy to amass the save stat is largely arbitrary and not done, or not consistently done, by all teams. Because there are a limited number of saves that can be gotten each season. Because closers are a dime a dozen, so a bout of bad luck or the whim of a manager can bump a closer down the line at any time for any length of time, regardless of how great the pitcher may be. Because some amassers of saves are better than closers and are moved from save-getter into the starting lineup.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

How in the world did Johnny Grubb his way into this list?

Brian

[ctownboy]

abothebear must have been hungry when he made that list....

David

[abothebear]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

How in the world did Johnny Grubb his way into this list?

Brian

Every 8-year-old's favorite player should be in the Hall of Fame.

[Fred]

Did I just go through over 300 posts without a mention of Indian Bob Johnson?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Fred

Did I just go through over 300 posts without a mention of Indian Bob Johnson?

+1

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Every 8-year-old's favorite player should be in the Hall of Fame.

Great!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I think Minnie Minoso is probably the most glaring omission. Hodges is likely in that conversation as well.

With everyone else, different people have their personal favorites. I'd like to see Tiant get in. And Steve Garvey - though I understand why he's not in - relatively weak for a 1B in career homers, not a great OBP - low WAR if you want to evaluate him on advanced stats - but there is a decent argument to be made he was the best 1B in the NL for about a decade. He has everything else - the ASG appearances, the awards...

Steve Garvey is the poster child for what is wrong with WAR. All Garvey did was get hits drive in runs and win games. From 1974-1984 Garvey led his team to 5 National League Championships and 1 World Championship. He committed no errors for a whole season and supposedly had a negative dWAR. 10x AS, 4 GG, MVP and 2 x NLCS MVP. He is absolutely a HOFer.

[Orioles1954]

For the first few years of his career Joe Mauer was considered a lock.

[bjerome]

I will still say that Mauer is getting in. It is strictly because of what he did behind the plate. In the history of the game there have been a total of 6 Batting titles won by a catcher. Bubbles Hargrave, Ernie Lombardi x2, and Buster Posey all have one. All were National League Catchers. Mauer has 3 himself and is the only American League Catcher to accomplish this feat. His MVP Award, Silver Slugger Awards, and Gold Gloves all add to him being the best all-around Catcher of his time. His induction will likely be later in his candidacy, but he's going to go in on the basis of what he did behind the plate as he did things no other catcher had ever accomplished.

[benge610]

Originally Posted by bjerome

I will still say that Mauer is getting in. It is strictly because of what he did behind the plate. In the history of the game there have been a total of 6 Batting titles won by a catcher. Bubbles Hargrave, Ernie Lombardi x2, and Buster Posey all have one. All were National League Catchers. Mauer has 3 himself and is the only American League Catcher to accomplish this feat. His MVP Award, Silver Slugger Awards, and Gold Gloves all add to him being the best all-around Catcher of his time. His induction will likely be later in his candidacy, but he's going to go in on the basis of what he did behind the plate as he did things no other catcher had ever accomplished.

Thank you Brad for presenting. In attempts to get my youngest boy into the stuff, Mauer was selected to go mining for; wax boxes of 2002 Topps, etc.
Opening packs with the ol' man! "Woo-Hoo!", whenever a Mauer was pulled.
Good Times; even bought him a Mauer jersey prior to our HOF Inductions at Cooperstown. Time passes and so does our focus; kinda lost track of Mauer's career. Thank you Brad.
Ben

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Steve Garvey is the poster child for what is wrong with WAR. All Garvey did was get hits drive in runs and win games. From 1974-1984 Garvey led his team to 5 National League Championships and 1 World Championship. He committed no errors for a whole season and supposedly had a negative dWAR. 10x AS, 4 GG, MVP and 2 x NLCS MVP. He is absolutely a HOFer.

Garvey having low home run and OPS totals are the reason he's not in. Also, he committed few errors but had poor range.

[moogpowell]

I agree that his fielding stats are misleading. I remember from back in the day he would hardly stretch or go off the bag. If the throw was errant, too bad.

BUT I am hugely sympathetic to him possibly going in. For starters, he was a 10-time all star and fell just 401 hits short of 3,000. His career avg. was .294 and in post-season action he excelled, batting .338 in 55 post-season games with 11 home runs (which equates to a home run in 4.7% of plate appearances compared to his career average of 2.9%) and 31 RBIs.

And look at this stat!

Number of seasons with 200+ hits.

Steve Garvey - 6
Tony Gwynn - 5
Rod Carew - 4

[tod41]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Garvey having low home run and OPS totals are the reason he's not in. Also, he committed few errors but had poor range.

Garvey was a great post season player. One of the best. He was a dominant player in his era. Sometimes the stats don't tell the true story. He should be in the Hall of Fame if Tony Perez and Harold Baines are in. Keith Hernandez should also be in based upon some of the past selections.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by tod41

Garvey was a great post season player. One of the best. He was a dominant player in his era. Sometimes the stats don't tell the true story. He should be in the Hall of Fame if Tony Perez and Harold Baines are in. Keith Hernandez should also be in based upon some of the past selections.

If he was truly dominant, the stats would reflect that. Dominant corner infielders don't hit 21 or fewer homers in 16 of their 19 seasons. They don't end up with a career .775 OPS. Dominant players have seasons over 140 OPS+ (Garvey: 0).

Garvey was a fine player but he was a (mostly) singles hitter at a position where power is the norm.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by Tabe

If he was truly dominant, the stats would reflect that. Dominant corner infielders don't hit 21 or fewer homers in 16 of their 19 seasons. They don't end up with a career .775 OPS. Dominant players have seasons over 140 OPS+ (Garvey: 0).

Garvey was a fine player but he was a (mostly) singles hitter at a position where power is the norm.

Consider the Era he played in. There were not many power hitting First Basemen like Rose, Hernandez, Chris Chambliss, Al Oliver, Rod Carew and others. Garvey has a higher OPS than Mantle in the post season. It should count for something. Garvey also had a 130 OPS+ five times including a 138+ in 1978.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

If he was truly dominant, the stats would reflect that. Dominant corner infielders don't hit 21 or fewer homers in 16 of their 19 seasons. They don't end up with a career .775 OPS. Dominant players have seasons over 140 OPS+ (Garvey: 0).

Garvey was a fine player but he was a (mostly) singles hitter at a position where power is the norm.

His home park was one of the toughest to hit home runs in. So what you are saying is if he played for the Braves and had exaggerated HR numbers, he would be a HoFer.

The game is decided by who scores the most runs, not who hits the most HRs or what team has the highest OPS. Garvey did what it took to win games, not impress want to be Statisticians.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Garvey having low home run and OPS totals are the reason he's not in. Also, he committed few errors but had poor range.

He had a horrible throwing arm as well.

Brian

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by rats60

Steve Garvey is the poster child for what is wrong with WAR. All Garvey did was get hits drive in runs and win games. From 1974-1984 Garvey led his team to 5 National League Championships and 1 World Championship. He committed no errors for a whole season and supposedly had a negative dWAR. 10x AS, 4 GG, MVP and 2 x NLCS MVP. He is absolutely a HOFer.

+1

Garvey was nails in the post season too.

[ejharrington]

Curt Schilling, Keith Hernandez, and Ross Barnes are my top 3.