Let's talk about "over-looked" true Rookie cards....Pre-war and early Post-war

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

Major League Baseball is not a single league, the American League and the National League constitute the current MLB umbrella organization that is composed of these two leagues. This umbrella organization did not exist at all until 1903, and remained fairly toothless for quite some time after that. The Federal League has been universally recognized as a major league, along with several others, for many decades. I guess no player before 1903 has a Major League rookie, by your redefinition of what "major league" means. Cy Young's first major league card is now his E107. "major league baseball" and "Major League Baseball" are not the same thing, one is a description of the level of play and acceptance in the stat books, the other is an actual organization.

Again, no.

It is possible to be a rookie in one league and then another and have them both be considered major leagues. But it is still not major league baseball unless you're playing in major league baseball. Ichiro is the perfect example. He played major league baseball in Japan but it was not THE major leagues. He became an MLB rookie when he played in the MLB. It can go the other way too. If you leave MLB and go play in Japan, are you not a rookie your first season in NPB?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Again, no. Are you trying to say Kid Nichols's N172 is a major league issued card despite him playing in the Western Association?

It is possible to be a rookie in one league and then another and have them both be considered major leagues. But it is still not major league baseball unless you're playing in major league baseball. Ichiro is the perfect example. He played major league baseball in Japan but it was not THE major leagues. He became an MLB rookie when he played in the MLB.

You are not reading what was written. The Western Association was not a major league. The list of major leagues was already posted by someone else on this page. The Japanese Leagues are not recognized as a major league in the US. It is a very specific list universally recognized in the United States by the current MLB, Baseball-Reference, and essentially every other compiler of statistics. The Players League, The American Association, The Union Association and the Federal League have been universally recognized as major leagues for decades. This has recently been expanded to include 7 negro leagues as well.

Again, eliminating the Federal League does not even change any significant players rookie card. A players major league rookie card does not mean The AL and NL after 1903 only. There were other major leagues that have been universally recognized as such for decades.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

You are not reading what was written. The Western Association was not a major league. The list of major leagues was already posted by someone else on this page. The Japanese Leagues are not recognized as a major league in the US. It is a very specific list universally recognized in the United States by the current MLB, Baseball-Reference, and essentially every other compiler of statistics. The Players League, The American Association, The Union Association and the Federal League have been universally recognized as major leagues for decades. This has recently been expanded to include 7 negro leagues as well.

Again, eliminating the Federal League does not even change any significant players rookie card. A players major league rookie card does not mean The AL and NL after 1903 only. There were other major leagues that have been universally recognized as such for decades.

In other words the Federal League may have sucked but get over it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In other words the Federal League may have sucked but get over it.

I like Federal League history, but they sucked and I think it's level of play was significantly below the NL and AL

[packs]

I was getting mixed up between major league issued sets and major leagues when you brought up Cy Young cards. Sorry about that re: Kid Nichols.

Accounting aside, there is a very practical way of looking at things and that's by looking at what happened. The Federal League was obviously not part of MLB or it would have participated in the league's play, which did include participation from both the American and National Leagues. You can define major league baseball in your own way but you cannot say the Federal League was part of one overall league. It was not.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I was getting mixed up between major league issued sets and major leagues when you brought up Cy Young cards. Sorry about that re: Kid Nichols.

Accounting aside, there is a very practical way of looking at things and that's by looking at what happened. The Federal League was obviously not part of MLB or it would have participated in the league's play, which did include participation from both the American and National Leagues. You can define major league baseball in your own way but you cannot say the Federal League was part of one overall league. It was not.

No one has said this. The Players Association was a major league. The Federal League was a major league. Major League Baseball, the capitalized business entity, consists of the American League and the National League. No one has said the Federal League joined a partnership with the American and National Leagues under a unifying umbrella organization.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

I was getting mixed up between major league issued sets and major leagues when you brought up Cy Young cards. Sorry about that re: Kid Nichols.

Accounting aside, there is a very practical way of looking at things and that's by looking at what happened. The Federal League was obviously not part of MLB or it would have participated in the league's play, which did include participation from both the American and National Leagues. You can define major league baseball in your own way but you cannot say the Federal League was part of one overall league. It was not.

A lot of people are splittings hairs on the proper definition of a "major league". Some I think are being too literal in that they are more narrowly defining a major league team as having to belong to the legally formed and organized Major League Baseball as we know it today. But professional baseball has been around a lot longer that just the inception of the American and National League organizations as we know them today. Because of that, I think you have to look more at the overall level of talent of players in a league or on a team to determine if they are at a major league level, as opposed to only accepting players and their teams as major leaguers because they play in a league that calls itself part of Major League Baseball. When you go back to the Federal League of 1913-15, or the Player's League of 1890, they both included many stars and everyday players from the reconized Major Leagues at those times. So the players and talent were on par with the reconized Major League teams, so why shouldn't they also be considered major league teams as well. And the fact that the MLB and the HOF both recognize and count the stats of players in those non-traditional leagues as being part of their major league career total records pretty much seals the deal that those were in fact major league players on major league teams. And now that inclusion is being expanded even further with the recent recognition of Negro League stats as being part of a player's major league career stats. So in effect, MLB and the HOF have now more or less officially sanctioned the Negro League as part of major league baseball, whether you like it or not.