Negro Leagues Recognized As Major

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by steve B

That will be a mess statswise.
My understanding has been that some of the competition was Major league, but some wasn't. I don't know what stats are counted and what aren't.

Are all the stats even known?

It's good to see the league get that recognition though.

Do you make the same claims about 19th century players? If not why not? All their stats aren’t complete.

[Seven]

I think BBREF should atleast have filters to toggle whether or not we can see the NBL stats. I mean zero disrespect to any of the NBL players, as I can only imagine the hardships they went through, nor am I questioning their talent, but having Vargas leapfrog so many players is a tad ridiculous especially considering how much shorter the single season was.

Are we counting Japanese stats next? Is Oh going to be considered the Home Run King over Bonds?

[packs]

I'm sure if you thought about it you will see there are no similarities between the Japanese League and the Negro League. And I think if you delved further into the reasoning behind the inclusion you will find further differences between the two.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm sure if you thought about it you will see there are no similarities between the Japanese League and the Negro League. And I think if you delved further into the reasoning behind the inclusion you will find further differences between the two.

I admit that comment was a bit pedantic, but It's just to bring up a point. As someone that has read and researched an awful lot about the Negro Leagues I'm glad they're finally getting their recognition, some extremely talented men played in that league that would have done well in baseball. They deserve to be recognized. We don't get Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays or Hank Aaron if guys like Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston didn't set the table.

But the entire face lift the leaderboards has gotten is ridiculous. I'm sorry if this is an unpopular opinion. Artie Wilson is labelled as the 6th highest single season batting average in a season that he had 95 At Bats. Josh Gibson is now considered to have the single season record for Slugging % in a season where he had 163 at bats. He dethrones Bonds' 811%. Eugene Bremmer is the single season ERA leader in a season where he threw 6 games. It's apples and oranges, the Negro League seasons were noticeably shorter than the MLB ones, there should be some sort of distinction. They played professionally, it's part of baseballs history but there needs to be a separating marker.

Do I wish there was a way to reverse time, and make it so there was never a color barrier and that all of these men had an opportunity to play in the MLB? Of course I do, but that's impossible. The Negro Leagues were different than the Majors, though, I'm not talking about from a talent perspective, but strictly speaking the amount of games being played.

[packs]

I understand what you're saying about the stats but I don't think they should be viewed in a vacuum. Jake Chesbro won 41 games in 1904 and almost no one knows his name. But if you win 30 games in 2021 you'd be a legend. There's an understanding of how the game has changed and numbers mean more or less depending on that understanding.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Do you make the same claims about 19th century players? If not why not? All their stats aren’t complete.

Yes, it's a similar situation, where some teams were excellent and consistent, and others.... not so much, largely due to sketchy financing.

What I'd previously read about the negro leagues was that the stats known at the time (which was admittedly quite some time ago) included known stats from barnstorming games against random town teams.

It seems things have improved a lot, and the known stats have been limited to games against league competition, which makes it nearly identical to some 19th century stuff.
It will take a lot of getting used to.

[mq711]

The next MLB record book update will include Helen Fox as having the greatest pitching year ever, 31 wins and an era under one. Why no push for her induction into the hall of fame? Played in organized league, excluded from MLB because of gender and I guess the the stats are as accurate as NLB.

[Jason19th]

[QUOTE=mq711;2115031]The next MLB record book update will include Helen Fox as having the greatest pitching year ever, 31 wins and an era under one. Why no push for her induction into the hall of fame? Played in organized league, excluded from MLB because of gender and I guess the the stats are as accurate as NLB.[/

Her exclusion wasn’t based on her gender but her skill. From Ada Weiss to the Bloomer girls, Lizzie Murphy to Mamee Johnson, while there have been many highly skilled female players I don’t think anyone is seriously arguing that they were MLB players. The game that the women played in the 40’s profession League was closer to modern fast pitch softball then baseball. This is not to say that I don’t believe that there will not eventually be a female player. In nearly all sports the gaps between female and male performance is shrinking. I would not be surprised if a women plays in the next twenty years. Especially if the game goes back to valuing on base and manufactured runs

[Clutch-Hitter]

[QUOTE=Jason19th;2115041]

Originally Posted by mq711

The next MLB record book update will include Helen Fox as having the greatest pitching year ever, 31 wins and an era under one. Why no push for her induction into the hall of fame? Played in organized league, excluded from MLB because of gender and I guess the the stats are as accurate as NLB.[/

Her exclusion wasn’t based on her gender but her skill. From Ada Weiss to the Bloomer girls, Lizzie Murphy to Mamee Johnson, while there have been many highly skilled female players I don’t think anyone is seriously arguing that they were MLB players. The game that the women played in the 40’s profession League was closer to modern fast pitch softball then baseball. This is not to say that I don’t believe that there will not eventually be a female player. In nearly all sports the gaps between female and male performance is shrinking. I would not be surprised if a women plays in the next twenty years. Especially if the game goes back to valuing on base and manufactured runs

That's great news!

[Kevin]

My dad grew up in Glendale. Born in 1940, his father wrote for the Sun as a criminal reporter (no byline) and his brother covered the NY baseball and football Giants from 1951-57, the Yankees through 65 and then the Pirates from 66-86.

I heard all about the Bushwicks as they were so close to Glendale. Dad saw them way more often than the Dodgers ( I was absolutely floored when he told me that he went to Ebbets field maybe 15-20x and spent way more time at the Polo Grounds - which makes sense because he tagged along with his brother while he was covering games).

So, Dexter Park...site of Franklin K Lane High School today. What a wonderful little history. Thanks for posting...