Personal Pre-War Set and Collector Survey

[todeen]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Tim, interesting stuff. I have not heard about the dairy distribution before. Any more that you can elaborate about the W711-1 set, and/or can you share the ad image or provide a link?

Brian

Member Bumpus Jones (Chris Gamble) is the person who shared this picture of the description with me. He shared it on our Facebook group. I'm not sure what book he has that he dug it out of.

[Clydewally]

Hi Bob,

Answers to your questions below. Sorry for the late response. I got caught up watching TV.

You said the goal was to have a HOFer's card from their active playing days, which obviously makes some of the 19th century guys super tough (and real expensive). Anyway, that gave me a few questions I wanted to ask about your HOFer collection then, and what you accept as an apprpriate part of it. Okay, here goes.

1. Just out of curiosity, what 19th century HOFers have you not been able to get a card from their playing days for yet?

There are a bunch of these and mostly because they are so expensive and not because I could not find them. I have generally paid less than $1,000 for my cards (I remember being guilt stricken when I spent $600 on a Honus Wagner CJ in the 90s). So folks like Ed Delehanty have always been too expensive.

2. As a follow-up to Question#1 then, would/do you go ahead and maybe use a card from a later set, after they were done playing, as a placeholder till you can eventually find a contemporary card from their playing days?

No, but if a Hall guy was a coach or manager and had a card in a set I considered that I needed that (so for example, Bill Dickey in the 1952 Topps set).

3. And what do consider as "cards" for your set? Does it have to be true cards, or can it be an Exhibit card, Post Card, pins, buttons, team cards or pictures, how about some type of premium or insert, or anything else for that matter?

I used to be quite fussy about this, but some of my favorite cards are post cards, like Novelty Cutlery and PC796. I also have quite a few exhibits. I don't count pins, buttons or team cards.

4. And what about someone who got into the HOF not for when they actually played, but for their managerial or other baseball work after they were done playing? Do you still have to have a card from their playing days, or wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a contempary card while they were actually involved in what really got them into the HOF? (Connie Mack immediately comes to mind for this question.)

I collect managers, umpires and executives. One of the hardest cards, for some reason, was Joe McCarthy. I had him with Dimaggio, but was not satisfied until I got him on the 1936 Canadian Goudey. There are plenty of cards of commissioners and managers. Not so many of Hall of Fame executives, particularly when they were active. I have the Branch Rickey CJ and a St Louis Cardinals issue. I have Comiskey as a player. There is a Barney Dreyfus 1910 Tip Top I always get outbid on. But there are others that I don't think have a card. The majority of umpires do have a card and I collect them.

I agree with your observation about Connie Mack and the same goes for John McGraw, Leo Durocher, Billy Southwroth, Joe Torre and others.

5. Are you also including HOF managers, umpires, and baseball exutives who may have never actually played in the majors, but did have cards (or other items) issued with them on it?

Yep, see the answer to 4.

6. And when you say HOFer, does it specifically have to be Cooperstown? What about Canton? Jim Thorpe, Earle'Greasy' Neale, and George Halas iimediately come to mind from the pre-war days.

I have cards of Greasy Neale for that reason. I would buy a Thorpe if it was affordable. I also collect hall of fame football autographs and have a Halas Grand Slam card and a Thorpe photo signed.

Always wanted to ask a HOF collector questions like this. Hope you don't mind. (This would probably be a good separate thread itself, but guessing it may have already been done before.)

Happy to answer the questions. The whole thread has been fun to read.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Clydewally

Hi Bob,

Answers to your questions below. Sorry for the late response. I got caught up watching TV.

You said the goal was to have a HOFer's card from their active playing days, which obviously makes some of the 19th century guys super tough (and real expensive). Anyway, that gave me a few questions I wanted to ask about your HOFer collection then, and what you accept as an apprpriate part of it. Okay, here goes.

1. Just out of curiosity, what 19th century HOFers have you not been able to get a card from their playing days for yet?

There are a bunch of these and mostly because they are so expensive and not because I could not find them. I have generally paid less than $1,000 for my cards (I remember being guilt stricken when I spent $600 on a Honus Wagner CJ in the 90s). So folks like Ed Delehanty have always been too expensive.

2. As a follow-up to Question#1 then, would/do you go ahead and maybe use a card from a later set, after they were done playing, as a placeholder till you can eventually find a contemporary card from their playing days?

No, but if a Hall guy was a coach or manager and had a card in a set I considered that I needed that (so for example, Bill Dickey in the 1952 Topps set).

3. And what do consider as "cards" for your set? Does it have to be true cards, or can it be an Exhibit card, Post Card, pins, buttons, team cards or pictures, how about some type of premium or insert, or anything else for that matter?

I used to be quite fussy about this, but some of my favorite cards are post cards, like Novelty Cutlery and PC796. I also have quite a few exhibits. I don't count pins, buttons or team cards.

4. And what about someone who got into the HOF not for when they actually played, but for their managerial or other baseball work after they were done playing? Do you still have to have a card from their playing days, or wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a contempary card while they were actually involved in what really got them into the HOF? (Connie Mack immediately comes to mind for this question.)

I collect managers, umpires and executives. One of the hardest cards, for some reason, was Joe McCarthy. I had him with Dimaggio, but was not satisfied until I got him on the 1936 Canadian Goudey. There are plenty of cards of commissioners and managers. Not so many of Hall of Fame executives, particularly when they were active. I have the Branch Rickey CJ and a St Louis Cardinals issue. I have Comiskey as a player. There is a Barney Dreyfus 1910 Tip Top I always get outbid on. But there are others that I don't think have a card. The majority of umpires do have a card and I collect them.

I agree with your observation about Connie Mack and the same goes for John McGraw, Leo Durocher, Billy Southwroth, Joe Torre and others.

5. Are you also including HOF managers, umpires, and baseball exutives who may have never actually played in the majors, but did have cards (or other items) issued with them on it?

Yep, see the answer to 4.

6. And when you say HOFer, does it specifically have to be Cooperstown? What about Canton? Jim Thorpe, Earle'Greasy' Neale, and George Halas iimediately come to mind from the pre-war days.

I have cards of Greasy Neale for that reason. I would buy a Thorpe if it was affordable. I also collect hall of fame football autographs and have a Halas Grand Slam card and a Thorpe photo signed.

Always wanted to ask a HOF collector questions like this. Hope you don't mind. (This would probably be a good separate thread itself, but guessing it may have already been done before.)

Happy to answer the questions. The whole thread has been fun to read.

Ken,

Thanks for answering and letting us know how you do what you do. Great collection and good luck adding to it in the future.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Tim, interesting stuff. I have not heard about the dairy distribution before. Any more that you can elaborate about the W711-1 set, and/or can you share the ad image or provide a link?

Brian

Originally Posted by todeen

Member Bumpus Jones (Chris Gamble) is the person who shared this picture of the description with me. He shared it on our Facebook group. I'm not sure what book he has that he dug it out of.

Chris says he was told this comes from the 1982 Reds Yearbook magazine.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by todeen

Chris says he was told this comes from the 1982 Reds Yearbook magazine.

Thanks for the info and posting the image of the article, and thanks to Mr. Bumpus for originally sharing it as well. Because of the scarcity of some players, it makes one think that these could have been issued on a weekly basis. All the previous info I remember indicated it was a box set available at the ballpark. But perhaps these could have also been distributed as mentioned through the dairy, and perhaps even individually or in a group as a giveaway at the park.

I have always liked the critters, no matter how they were distributed...they have great images of the players, and are just a cool group of cards.

Brian

[todeen]

Originally Posted by BobC

Tim,

Great info, but have a follow-up question though. The W711 cards appear to have been issued as three distinct, separate sets with the first issued in 1938, second in 1939, and third in 1940, at least according to the old SCD catalogs. So were the W711 cards supposedly being distributed by the French Bauer dairy for all three years/types, or possibly only for one (or two) of those years/types? And if not for all three, can we tell for which year(s)/type(s) they were?

We know the French Bauer Dairy had some advertising interaction with the Reds team, or at least some of the Red's players, when they put some Red's players on their milk bottle caps, but that wasn't till 1963. If the dairy was actually responsible for producing and distributing any of these W711 cards, wouldn't it make sense for them to also have the French Bauer name at least somewhere on the cards to enhance their advertising worth? If French Bauer went to the trouble and expense to have the cards produced, adding their their name would be nominal cost, at worst. That said, is it possible that the Cincinnati team was the primary producer and issuer of these W711 cards after all, and that maybe the team then also made them available to local companies like the French Bauer Dairy to use and help distribute them? Maybe French Bauer was an advertiser with the Reds team back then, and so got permission to use these cards as an incentive to get people to sign up for their delivery service. And if true, there may have been other local Cincinnati businesses distributing these W711 cards also. Just speculating.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Thanks for the info and posting the image of the article, and thanks to Mr. Bumpus for originally sharing it as well. Because of the scarcity of some players, it makes one think that these could have been issued on a weekly basis. All the previous info I remember indicated it was a box set available at the ballpark. But perhaps these could have also been distributed as mentioned through the dairy, and perhaps even individually or in a group as a giveaway at the park.

I have always liked the critters, no matter how they were distributed...they have great images of the players, and are just a cool group of cards.

Brian

The 1940 Reds b/w set (Harry Hartman set) can routinely be found in boxed set form, with box. I would agree this was likely sold at or near the stadium.

But I have never seen a box for the 1938 set. I have never seen a complete set. This leads me to believe it is not connected with the team, the dairy connection seems more likely. Although I don't know why there is no advertisement.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[BobC]

Originally Posted by todeen

The 1940 Reds b/w set (Harry Hartman set) can routinely be found in boxed set form, with box. I would agree this was likely sold at or near the stadium.

But I have never seen a box for the 1938 set. I have never seen a complete set. This leads me to believe it is not connected with the team, the dairy connection seems more likely. Although I don't know why there is no advertisement.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Interesting factor. Can also see how with the years of distribution for these three different sets/types being all together (1938, 1939 and 1940), along with their limited distribution area, only including Cincinnati Reds players, and relative scarcity overall, it makes it somewhat easy to believe that the definitively known manufacturer and distribution method for any one of those years would readily be considered the same for all three sets/types. Even if that isn't accurate.

Still, even without evidence of of a box ever being used to distribute the 1938 set/type in, the fact that the 1938 and 1939 cards are virtually the same would only support the thinking that they were produced by the same manufacturer, and therefore more likely to have been distributed in a like manner over both years. I don't know any of the distribution details myself, but you specifically mentioned not knowing of any boxes existing for just the 1938 Type 1 cards. So does that mean that there are known and existing boxes for the 1939 and 1940 sets? And if so, and never having seen one of these boxes myself, how can you tell for certain that a box used for the 1939 set could not have been used for the 1938 set? (The 1940 cards were a different size, so the box for that set clearly would not have also been used for the 1938 and 1939 sets.) And isn't it also possible that even if no box was ever used to sell a 1938 set in that for that initial year they could have used envelopes instead to sell the sets in? I know, then why are there no existing envelopes? But if they did use envelopes, they could have been unmarked and have no specific way to identify and tie them to the 1938 set then. Also, a box from back then would have a much better chance of surviving till today than a much more fragile envelope. And these cards are already scarce so the number of boxes or envelopes originally sold wouldn't have been that great to start with, further decreasing the odds of examples of either still surviving till today. Or maybe that first year they only sold the cards individually, or possibly just handed them out for a while as a free giveaway at the ballpark. All good questions I think.

Regardless, any of these theories seem a lot more plausible than the one having the French Bauer Dairy beginning production of these cards in 1938 and then distributing them, probably one at a time, with their weekly milk deliveries. And then in the following year (1939), having the Cincinnati Reds team take over the production of these cards and continue producing them using the exact same design and player images for the most part, but now selling them as a box set. Something doesn't add up. I know there is that article that you posted, that came from Chris Gamble, saying the 1938 cards were in fact made and distributed weekly by the French Bauer Dairy, but where did that item come from? I went back and reread what you had initially said about Chris' posting, and noted you originally referred to it as an "advertisement". So I immediately assumed it was likely something from a credible, contemporary source, like a local newspaper or magazine. But then looked again at the item Chris had posted, and it is most clearly not an advertisement talking about the French Bauer Dairy now giving out cards of Reds players to hopefully get more people to sign up for their weekly milk deliveries. It actually reads more like a card issue description you'd see in the SCD catalog, or an article written in some more modern card publication by a writer explaining what they thought the origins of this set were. Do you have any more info on where (and when) this article came from, and who the author is? That would certainly help to possibly add a lot more credibility and veracity to what is being said about the 1938 set in it. And since it also seems pretty obvious that article was written sometime long after 1938, why no mention in it of the 1939 set and if that shouldn't also be primarily attributed to the French Bauer Dairy as well?

The similarity of the 1938 and 1939 W711 sets definitely ties their production together, and coupled with no direct mention of French Bauer Dairy on the cards themselves or in any other contemporary advertising that anyone is currently aware of, it seems most likely the Reds team would have been the primary party responsible for their production and distribution. However, it is also still possible that some of those 1938 cards were given away by the French Bauer Dairy, perhaps in conjunction with some kind of agreement or advertising partnership they may have had with the Reds team. But again, with no other surviving examples of ads, articles or other evidence from aroung 1938 mentioning the Dairy's involvement in such a promotion, it seems less likely to have been the case that the French Bauer Dairy was the principal distributor of these 1938 W711 cards, let alone their original producer.

And lastly, there is the description given for the 1938 W711 set in the old SCD catalogs. The catalogs were (and still are) widely known and owned by serious collectors throughout the hobby, and generally regarded as one of, if not the most, accurate and comprehensive reference source for vintage cards and sets ever published. The fact that over all the years the SCD catalogs were published showing the 1938 W711 cards were from a team issued set, and no one apparently ever came forward with this alternative origin for these cards actually being produced by the French Bauer Dairy, is extremely telling in my opinion. For had this alternate origin for the 1938 cards been put forward by anyone to the SCD catalog staff, and sufficient evidence or proof of it being true provided, I feel fairly confident that SCD would have revised and corrected the set's description in their catalogs, or at least included a mention of it as a possible alternative. Bottom line is, I can't believe no one wouldn't have told this to Bob Lemke, or his successors, and doubt this would have only now been found out, after the SCD catalog stopped being published.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by todeen

Member Bumpus Jones (Chris Gamble) is the person who shared this picture of the description with me. He shared it on our Facebook group. I'm not sure what book he has that he dug it out of.

Tim,

Great info, but have a follow-up question though. The W711 cards appear to have been issued as three distinct, separate sets with the first issued in 1938, second in 1939, and third in 1940, at least according to the old SCD catalogs. So were the W711 cards supposedly being distributed by the French Bauer dairy for all three years/types, or possibly only for one (or two) of those years/types? And if not for all three, can we tell for which year(s)/type(s) they were?

We know the French Bauer Dairy had some advertising interaction with the Reds team, or at least some of the Red's players, when they put some Red's players on their milk bottle caps, but that wasn't till 1963. If the dairy was actually responsible for producing and distributing any of these W711 cards, wouldn't it make sense for them to also have the French Bauer name at least somewhere on the cards to enhance their advertising worth? If French Bauer went to the trouble and expense to have the cards produced, adding their name would be a nominal cost, at worst. That said, is it possible that the Cincinnati team was the primary producer and issuer of these W711 cards after all, and that maybe the team then also made them available to local companies like the French Bauer Dairy to use and help distribute them? Maybe French Bauer was an advertiser with the Reds team back then, and so got permission to use these cards as an incentive to get people to sign up for their delivery service. And if true, there may have been other local Cincinnati businesses distributing these W711 cards also. Just speculating.

[obctom]

Originally Posted by todeen

Member Bumpus Jones (Chris Gamble) is the person who shared this picture of the description with me. He shared it on our Facebook group. I'm not sure what book he has that he dug it out of.

I think I read that this was in the 1982 Reds Yearbook. I have to wonder about how accurate the writer of that blurb was - Livengood played for the 1939 Reds, not the 1938 team - and how in the world would they get the information that only 5 Livengood cards are in collections, especially in the pre-internet says of the early '80s? Seems quite the reach.

I've heard the rumor of a dairy distributor too, but so far I've not seen evidence of that. I've tried searching the Cincy newspapers for 1938 & 1939 and seen no mention of cards being distributed, wither by the team or an entity like a dairy; of course that proves nothing.

You'd think that the dairy (maybe the French Bauer dairy in Cincy) would have some kind of advertisement on the cards somewhere.
Also - if the dairy distributed the cards weekly, how so? By mail-in requests? With delivery of dairy products?

Trying to figure out the distribution of the W711-1 sets is quite a puzzle!

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 1938 & 1939 distribution. Some cards issue in both years have statistical/biographical changes on the back (Berger, Derringer, Frey, Goodman, Gamble, Lombardi, McKechnie, Myers, Riggs, Walters) - and Vandy has two different fronts - yet there are several that were supposedly issued in both years, yet I've seen absolutely no difference on the backs (Craft, Davis, Gowdy, Hershberger, McCormick, Weaver and maybe Grissom).

Did the distributor just have a bunch of extras around for these guys and thus didn't re-print them? Or were they really only issued in one year and not the next?

As you can tell I've become more than slightly obsessed about this set!

Tom

[brianp-beme]

There are 12 cards that are featured in both the 1938 and 1939 W711-1 Reds sets that contain differences in their writeups on the back. Here are those cards and the differences between the two years (In most cases I have provided little snippets from the respective bios to identify them below):

Wally Berger:

1938 - "in a trade...in June"
1939 - "in a trade...in June, 1938"

Paul Derringer:

1938 - "Won 22 games...this season"
1939 - "Won 21 games...last year"

Linus Frey:

1938 - "only 25 now"
1939 - "only 26 now"

Lee Gamble:

1938 - "Syracuse last year"
1939 - "Syracuse in 1937"

Ival Goodman:

1938 - No mention of 30 homers
1939 - Mentions hitting 30 homers

Lee Grissom:

1938 - No mention of 1938
1939 - Mentions 1938

Ernie Lombardi:

1938 - No mention of 1938 MVP
1939 - Mentions 1938 MVP

Bill McKechnie:

1938 - "Last year he led..."
1939 - "In 1937 he led..."

Lloyd "Whitey" Moore:

1938 - "Last year with Syracuse"
1939 - "In 1937 with Syracuse"

Billly Myers:

1938 - "In his fourth year"
1939 - "In his fifth year"

Lee Riggs:

1938 - "In his fourth season"
1939 - "In his fifth season"

Wm. "Bucky" Walters:

1938 - "Won 14 games"
1939 - "Won 15 games"


And the following 6 are featured in both sets but have no differences in the writeups between the years:

Harry Craft
Ray "Peaches" Davis
Harry "Hank" Gowdy
Williard Hershberger
Frank McCormick
Jim Weaver


Still not sure about distribution of the set...this still remains quite the mystery.

Brian

[EGreenwood]

Bob C.

Very late to the game:

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?
My dad got me my first pre-war in 1982 - T-206 Oscar Stanage.

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards/items you've
ever owned at any one time? ~About 800 baseball and 1,400 non-sports

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards/items do you currently still own?
~ about the same as #2

4. What is/are the most significant card(s)/item(s) you currently own?
(Not what you may have owned at one time.)
W517 Gehrig, Ruths (35G and Sanella) and Stanages for sentimental value

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you
currently own? (Again, not counting sets you used to own, and only
counting the baseball cards in multi-subject sets in determining the
percentage complete. And not including as sets any issue with only 1 or
2 listed baseball cards/items in it.)

T200 (missing 2)
35 Goudey 4 in 1
34-36 Diamond Stars
T218
Several non-sports - N3, T29, T52, T59, T60, T69, T70, T77, T99, T113
Several non-sport partials (>75%) - N21, N31, T6, T28, T51, T57, T108

Erik

[Casey2296]

Where the hell did Bob C run off to? Especially during tax season.

[Howe’s Hunter]

Even later to the game:

1. How long have you been collecting pre-war cards?
1989. Found a red background T206 Cobb at an antique store, and it became the first pre-war card I over-paid for.

2. What is the approximate largest number of pre-war cards you've ever owned at any one time?
408

3. Approximately how many pre-war cards do you currently still own?
408

4. What is/are the most significant card(s) you currently own?
Several significant HoFers, and a couple tough-Hindu backs

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you currently own?
408 T206s, all with Howe McCormick's stamp on the back (barely qualifies ... the collection sits at 78% of a complete set (522 cards as the McCormick-Howe Mercantile didn't sell Polar Bear, so a complete set is short two guys.))

Ed

[StraightRaceCards]

Originally Posted by Howe’s Hunter

Even later to the game:

5. What complete sets or near complete sets (say 75% or more) do you currently own?
408 T206s, all with Howe McCormick's stamp on the back (barely qualifies ... the collection sits at 78% of a complete set (522 cards as the McCormick-Howe Mercantile didn't sell Polar Bear, so a complete set is short two guys.))

Ed

I’ve admired and enjoyed watching you progress on the Howe’s journey from afar.

Very cool way to collect T206. I’ll be rooting for success on your journey.

Matt Galvin

[obctom]

Hi Brian,
Your list of back variations matches mine. However, I haven't seen an example of the Grissom that does NOT mention 1938. Do you by chance have one? Or have you seen one?

The few times I've seen a Grissom on eBay, every one of them mentions 1938. My copy mentions 1938 as well. Makes me wonder if I'm chasing a phantom card that doesn't really exist - or if it's just very, very rare.

The other card that is on both the 1938 and 1939 sets is the Vander Meer; the backs are the same, but one is a pitching pose on the front and the other is a portrait.


Tom

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

There are 12 cards that are featured in both the 1938 and 1939 W711-1 Reds sets that contain differences in their writeups on the back. Here are those cards and the differences between the two years (In most cases I have provided little snippets from the respective bios to identify them below):

Wally Berger:

1938 - "in a trade...in June"
1939 - "in a trade...in June, 1938"

Paul Derringer:

1938 - "Won 22 games...this season"
1939 - "Won 21 games...last year"

Linus Frey:

1938 - "only 25 now"
1939 - "only 26 now"

Lee Gamble:

1938 - "Syracuse last year"
1939 - "Syracuse in 1937"

Ival Goodman:

1938 - No mention of 30 homers
1939 - Mentions hitting 30 homers

Lee Grissom:

1938 - No mention of 1938
1939 - Mentions 1938

Ernie Lombardi:

1938 - No mention of 1938 MVP
1939 - Mentions 1938 MVP

Bill McKechnie:

1938 - "Last year he led..."
1939 - "In 1937 he led..."

Lloyd "Whitey" Moore:

1938 - "Last year with Syracuse"
1939 - "In 1937 with Syracuse"

Billly Myers:

1938 - "In his fourth year"
1939 - "In his fifth year"

Lee Riggs:

1938 - "In his fourth season"
1939 - "In his fifth season"

Wm. "Bucky" Walters:

1938 - "Won 14 games"
1939 - "Won 15 games"


And the following 6 are featured in both sets but have no differences in the writeups between the years:

Harry Craft
Ray "Peaches" Davis
Harry "Hank" Gowdy
Williard Hershberger
Frank McCormick
Jim Weaver


Still not sure about distribution of the set...this still remains quite the mystery.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by obctom

Hi Brian,
Your list of back variations matches mine. However, I haven't seen an example of the Grissom that does NOT mention 1938. Do you by chance have one? Or have you seen one?

The few times I've seen a Grissom on eBay, every one of them mentions 1938. My copy mentions 1938 as well. Makes me wonder if I'm chasing a phantom card that doesn't really exist - or if it's just very, very rare.

The other card that is on both the 1938 and 1939 sets is the Vander Meer; the backs are the same, but one is a pitching pose on the front and the other is a portrait.


Tom

Because of the photo differences, the Johnny Vander Meer is the easiest one to figure out which year it belongs to. Its existence makes you wish they had used different photos on all the repeat players in 1939.

I do not have a 1938 Grissom (no mention of 1938 on back). My thought is, if it does exist, it is a tough one that should be snagged, no matter what condition it is in.

Brian