Outed PSA 10 Gary Carter being sold for second time by PWCC after PSA "review"

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Absolutely. Whether that happens, I don't know. Until then, these brazen pieces of garbage will continue to do what they do, seemingly facilitated by TPGs and many AHs who have compromised their integrity to accommodate them.

Additionaly:

Record sales from the past 6-12 months, coupled with massive numbers of new "collectors" into the hobby, have likely taken things farther in the wrong direction.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Additionaly:

Record sales from the past 6-12 months, coupled with massive numbers of new "collectors" into the hobby, have likely taken things farther in the wrong direction.

Indeed. The bottom line is that having a pool of cards with much higher grades than they would be in their natural state is a win win win for everyone except those of us who actually care. As one of the most successful pieces of garbage was heard to have said, I'm just making guys what they want.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Indeed. The bottom line is that having a pool of cards with much higher grades than they would be in their natural state is a win win win for everyone except those of us who actually care...

There are also the people who get stuck holding the bag somewhere down the road when their "mint condition" card is exposed as Authentic Altered. This would presumably cause the value to drop significantly.

For this to happen, though, there would have to be a larger number people who care than there are currently.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by Eric72

There are also the people who get stuck holding the bag somewhere down the road when their "mint condition" card is exposed as Authentic Altered. This would presumably cause the value to drop significantly.

For this to happen, though, there would have to be a larger number people who care than there are currently.

Sadly, I believe that the number of people who care will be less and less as time goes by. And when there is this much money to be made altering cards, the amount of time and money put into making those alterations will always greatly exceed the limited time that the TPGs put into grading the cards. Personally I have never believed that the TPGs had the ability (not to mention the motivation) to truly detect micro-trimming and other expertly done alterations, a belief that kept me away from high grade cards since I began collecting vintage.

As much as many of us would like to believe otherwise, great looking cards in A holders could be one of the best long term investments that you can make in vintage cards right now. If at some time in the future ALL high grade vintage cards are suspected to have been altered, even if most weren't, why would the great looking card in the A holder be worth a fraction of the price of the others? And if, in the future, some great new technology does somehow allow the TPGs to detect alterations accurately, do you think that they're going to start putting 30% or 40% or 50% of all previously high grade big dollar vintage cards in AA holders!?! There is no way that would happen, they'd be slitting their own throats financially. They are more likely to spend their money burying that technology to make sure that it never sees the light of day.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Indeed. The bottom line is that having a pool of cards with much higher grades than they would be in their natural state is a win win win for everyone except those of us who actually care.

So I make my perfunctory semi-annual visit to Net54 just to see what's going on and it is truly astounding that the "hobby" has devolved to such a deplorable state of affairs with voluminous unconscionable business practices with no corrective action in sight and yet cards are still escalating in price. How mind-boggling.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

So I make my perfunctory semi-annual visit to Net54 just to see what's going on and it is truly astounding that the "hobby" has devolved to such a deplorable state of affairs with voluminous unconscionable business practices with no corrective action in sight and yet cards are still escalating in price. How mind-boggling.

As your nom de 54 says so well, Dan, it's no longer really a hobby. When it was, originality mattered, because people were mostly in it for love of the cards, and altering a card without disclosure violated every norm by creating artificially improved cards and skewing the natural stratification of cards according to how well they had survived. New cards out of packs all more or less looked the same, so nobody really cared about whether under a loupe they were mint or gem mint. With the overwhelming shift of focus to value, cards are commodities and originality matters much less. That's all it is.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As your nom de 54 says so well, Dan, it's no longer really a hobby. When it was, originality mattered, because people were mostly in it for love of the cards, and altering a card without disclosure violated every norm by creating artificially improved cards and skewing the natural stratification of cards according to how well they had survived. New cards out of packs all more or less looked the same, so nobody really cared about whether under a loupe they were mint or gem mint. With the overwhelming shift of focus to value, cards are commodities and originality matters much less. That's all it is.

Well then how do you explain why a PSA 9 sells for infinitely more than a PSA "A"? Those collectors with deep pockets and blind reliance on TPGs must care somewhat about "originality" in order to be driving up the prices of these perceived high grade cards. If originality matters much less these days, why not just buy the "A" graded card for 1/100th the price?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well then how do you explain why a PSA 9 sells for infinitely more than a PSA "A"? Those collectors with deep pockets and blind reliance on TPGs must care somewhat about "originality" in order to be driving up the prices of these perceived high grade cards. If originality matters much less these days, why not just buy the "A" graded card for 1/100th the price?

The FLIP matters. People buying the 9 largely don't care IMO if the card is altered, but a 9 flip is infinitely better than an A flip. The flip is the commodity, to quote myself.

If originality matters as much as it used to, why have card prices soared despite clear and massive revelations of trimmed and recolored cards in TPG holders with grades? To the point where any buyer not well-versed in alterations and not doing major due diligence cannot reasonably assume an expensive card is original.

But you know this. Was this a rhetorical question perhaps?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The FLIP matters. People buying the 9 largely don't care IMO if the card is altered, but a 9 flip is infinitely better than an A flip. The flip is the commodity, to quote myself.

If originality matters as much as it used to, why have card prices soared despite clear and massive revelations of trimmed and recolored cards in TPG holders with grades? To the point where any buyer not well-versed in alterations and not doing major due diligence cannot reasonably assume an expensive card is original.

But you know this. Was this a rhetorical question perhaps?

Yeah.... 50% semantics, 40% exasperation, 10% sarcasm.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

So I make my perfunctory semi-annual visit to Net54 just to see what's going on and it is truly astounding that the "hobby" has devolved to such a deplorable state of affairs with voluminous unconscionable business practices with no corrective action in sight and yet cards are still escalating in price. How mind-boggling.

When Purdue Pharma and other pharmaceutical companies came under fire for the opioid crisis they went out and hired the best lawyers they could, lawyers who previously worked for the government and the DEA fighting the opioid problem. This is exactly the tactic PWCC used. They shut up one of their most vocal critics with a paycheck. Sad.