Interesting trivia about 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards...show us some of these rare gems

[Pat R]

Maybe this will convince you how important the information in the journal is
Ted.

As I said before the Old Mill ad from 1909 was found for many years it was
said that the printing/distribution of the Southern Leaguers began sometime
in the spring/summer of 1910.

Here's the thread about that ad

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=Old+Mill

If you look at one of the Old Mill pages in the journal it coincides with the
dates on all of the ads.
img454.jpg

The Old mill ad I found was in an August 1909 newspaper and the Journal
shows they started packing and shipping in July 1909
img454 - Copy.jpg

The Old mill ads that were previously known started in March 1910 and the journal shows they started packing on March 15 1910 and shipping on March 17 1910
img454 - Copy (2).jpg

In my thread I stated the last ad in the newspapers for the Old Mills was December 9 1910
and the journal shows they discontinued the Old Mills on December 14 1910.
img454 - Copy (3).jpg

Originally Posted by Pat R

It has long been thought that the southern league players were printed
with Hindu backs during the 150 series and that they were printed with Old Mill
backs in the early printing of the 350 series but that might not be the case.

The first known Hindu ad that showed pictures of but didn't mention southern
leaguers ran on August 13 1909.
Attachment 330858

The first known ad that mentioned the southern leaguers ran on August 23 1909.
Attachment 330859

I recently discovered this Old Mill ad that ran for a week in a Tampa
newspaper beginning on August 14 1909.
Attachment 330860

It seems that Eli Witt was quite an entrepreneur who had ties
with R.J. Reynolds.
Attachment 330861Attachment 330862

Originally Posted by Pat R

I feel like a jackass after my last post about the Old Mill ads. I visit
and use t206resource all the time and I've visited the advertisement
section several times but until last night I never noticed the galleries for the
Sporting Life, Hindu, Old Mill and Piedmont ads.

The Old mill gallery has 26 different ads.
http://t206resource.com/Old%20Mill%20Ad%20Gallery.html

Jim and Tim did a great job on the ads and I would like to
add some new information to theirs.

All 26 of the ads have a matching ad that was printed in Texas newspapers
with the exact picture but different wording and all the Texas paper ads
state that the packs contain Texas League baseball pictures

All the Texas Ads are on the right
Attachment 331067
Attachment 331068
Attachment 331069
Attachment 331070
Attachment 331071
Attachment 331072
Attachment 331074

The earliest Texas ad I found appeared in the Austin Statesman on Sept. 7 1910 the first non Texas ad appeared in a District of Columbia and Virginia
newspaper on March 1 1910. The last Texas ad appeared in the El Paso Herald on Dec 9 1910 and the last non Texas ad was in a Henderson NC paper on
Sept. 29 1910.

After the Dec. 9 I didn't find any Old Mill ads until this one
that appeared in the Galvelston daily news on Feb 14 1911
that made no mention of baseball pictures.
Attachment 331075

[RCMcKenzie]

Pat,

To Barry's comment earlier in the thread, and Peter's question, if type 2 and 3 Coupons did not exist, would Burdick have classified T213-1's as T206?

What were Old Mill and Sovereign cards called in 1910? Were they collected together to form a set? Were they called "White Borders"? Are Coupon cards made by a different group of people than the cards with Cycle backs?

Here are 3 different Diamond Stars cards with 3 different backs. Blue backs were released later than green backs, with the same front. The black back was re-released 40 years later by a different company. Are Coupon cards similar to the TCMA Diamond Stars card? I'm not looking at this as arguing, just trying to get a better understanding of the cards we collect.

(Also adding Bill Sweeney to the virtual set...)

[asphaltman]

My one and only at this point -

[Peter_Spaeth]

Question for Pat, and not intended at all as confrontational. If indeed Coupon's first offering was post T206, why would they have used a T206 typeface for their first issue and then changed it for their second issue? Apologies if that was already discussed.

To me, and believe me I know nothing about this, it seems more logical that while part of ATC in 1910 they would have used the same typeface as the other ATC issues, then changed for their second issue when they were part of a different company.

I am probably missing something obvious but just asking, thanks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Question for Pat, and not intended at all as confrontational. If indeed Coupon's first offering was post T206/ATC, why would they have used a T206 typeface for their first issue and then changed it for their second issue? Apologies if that was already discussed.

To me, and believe me I know nothing about this, it seems more logical that while part of ATC in 1910 they would have used the same typeface as the other ATC issues, then changed for their second issue when they were part of a different company.

I am probably missing something obvious but just asking, thanks.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Pat,

To Barry's comment earlier in the thread, and Peter's question, if type 2 and 3 Coupons did not exist, would Burdick have classified T213-1's as T206?

What were Old Mill and Sovereign cards called in 1910? Were they collected together to form a set? Were they called "White Borders"? Are Coupon cards made by a different group of people than the cards with Cycle backs?

Here are 3 different Diamond Stars cards with 3 different backs. Blue backs were released later than green backs, with the same front. The black back was re-released 40 years later by a different company. Are Coupon cards similar to the TCMA Diamond Stars card? I'm not looking at this as arguing, just trying to get a better understanding of the cards we collect.

(Also adding Bill Sweeney to the virtual set...)

I'm not sure I understand all of your questions Rob. Personally it doesn't matter to me if some people want to group them in with t206's but I do think the date they were printed is important.

In most of the newspapers they were all just called baseball pictures or cigarette pictures all the way back to the late 1800's with the Old Judges and other sets from that era.

I think because of the popularity of what we now call the t206's shortly before the t213-2's they decided to try the same thing with the Coupon type 1's and the cheapest/easiest way was to print them on the thinner stock using the t206 images. (I think this answers Peters question too)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'm not sure I understand all of your questions Rob. Personally it doesn't matter to me if some people want to group them in with t206's but I do think the date they were printed is important.

In most of the newspapers they were all just called baseball pictures or cigarette pictures all the way back to the late 1800's with the Old Judges and other sets from that era.

I think because of the popularity of what we now call the t206's shortly before the t213-2's they decided to try the same thing with the Coupon type 1's and the cheapest/easiest way was to print them on the thinner stock using the t206 images. (I think this answers Peters question too)

Pat in part, but why then make the change for the Type 2s?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pat in part, but why then make the change for the Type 2s?

Just an opinion Peter but my thought is the "trial" was successful so the decided to print them on thicker stock and maybe put their own stamp on them by using the blue captions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Just an opinion Peter but my thought is the "trial" was successful so the decided to print them on thicker stock and maybe put their own stamp on them by using the blue captions.

I guess my theory from a very high vantage point and obviously not having probed this as you have, would be that the change resulted from being under new ownership who decided to do things differently than ATC did, or maybe there was even a copyright issue and they had to make them look different. Thus, the first printing looked like the rest of the ATC cards because in fact Coupon was still an ATC brand at the time. But that may be contrary to specific evidence of date you've uncovered.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess my theory from a very high vantage point and obviously not having probed this as you have, would be that the change resulted from being under new ownership who decided to do things differently than ATC did, or maybe there was even a copyright issue and they had to make them look different. Thus, the first printing looked like the rest of the ATC cards because in fact Coupon was still an ATC brand at the time. But that may be contrary to specific evidence of date you've uncovered.

If that was the case I don't think they would have been able to use the same images.

The complete dissolution took longer than most people think. I think I posted a thread on it I'll see if I can find it.

ATC 5 complete Dissolution 11-18-1912.jpg

Here's the thread.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...obacco+company

[RCMcKenzie]

Sorry, I can say and write some convoluted things sometimes.

For what Burdick called "T206", is it fair to say David Hall is the only person who tried to put a "set" of T206 together? I collect the cards by the backs. I'm working on all 3 Coupon types, AB350 NF, Cycle460, and numerous player back runs. If I'm able to find all of the known cards with an AB350NF back, then I will have a set in my mind. Some may call it a subset of what Hall was collecting.

Series like the Type 3 Coupons say "Collect all 70" so we know it was meant to be complete, as it's own set, at 70 cards. We know of 70 known. Victory says "90" and some are yet to be discovered, if ever.

Were the makers of T206 Piedmont 150 cards wanting people to stay with the same brand and collect all 150?

My point is that T206 is an arbitrary term to begin with. It was applied to the cards decades after they were created.

On the blue type face, where does that leave T214 and T215-2, which are blue?