Hey, pennant guys

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I'm certain the first one is by Trench. Trench definitely used that quirky font in the 1950s. And, that baseball/moon-lit batter artwork is a known Trench design, too. We know it was used by Trench ca. 1950--Rick Levy found/posted a 1949 photo documenting this fact. I've seen it on many a Brooklyn Dodger pennant; but, never on a post-1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant. It was always monochrome when used on Brooklyn pennants. It was also used on some Yankees and Phillies pennants from what I assume to be the same era. Of note: the Phillies pennant was polychrome.

Interestingly, there's no New York Giants pennant featuring this moon-lit batter artwork; only San Francisco.

As to the others, the problem, for me, is that those latter SF Giants pennants in your evolution don't really look anything like what Trench was making for other teams in the 1960s--especially as concerns stadium pennants. The coloring, in particular, looks like it was applied with water colors, or a very translucent ink. It's also quite vibrant. Most likely these are by Trench, too; but ... I guess you couldn't exclude a copy cat by some bay area pennant maker that only made Giants pennants, right?

I just can't think of other Trench-made baseball pennants from the 1960s that resemble these....

Thanks, Kyle. Someday, if I'm feeling ambitious, I should add a "maker" column to my pennant spreadsheet(s).

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by erikc21

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the ‘dots’ after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do. Without a doubt (or dot).

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I'm certain the first one is by Trench. Trench definitely used that quirky font in the 1950s. And, that baseball/moon-lit batter artwork is a known Trench design, too. We know it was used by Trench ca. 1950--Rick Levy found/posted a 1949 photo documenting this fact. I've seen it on many a Brooklyn Dodger pennant; but, never on a post-1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant. It was always monochrome when used on Brooklyn pennants. It was also used on some Yankees and Phillies pennants from what I assume to be the same era. Of note: the Phillies pennant was polychrome.

Interestingly, there's no New York Giants pennant featuring this moon-lit batter artwork; only San Francisco.

As to the others, the problem, for me, is that those latter SF Giants pennants in your evolution don't really look anything like what Trench was making for other teams in the 1960s--especially as concerns stadium pennants. The coloring, in particular, looks like it was applied with water colors, or a very translucent ink. It's also quite vibrant. Most likely these are by Trench, too; but ... I guess you couldn't exclude a copy cat by some bay area pennant maker that only made Giants pennants, right?

I just can't think of other Trench-made baseball pennants from the 1960s that resemble these....

I have always thought that those funky off-colored Giants Pennants were made by a local Northern Cal or Independent manufacturer. As you stated... no other teams had designs or colors even slightly resembling those early '60s Candlestick pennants. They are completely unique to the Giants.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by erikc21

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the ‘dots’ after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you might be onto something Erik.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I have always thought that those funky off-colored Giants Pennants were made by a local Northern Cal or Independent manufacturer. As you stated... no other teams had designs or colors even slightly resembling those early '60s Candlestick pennants. They are completely unique to the Giants.

IMO first one likely not Trench, primarily due to the construction of the pennant. Wide spine, and the white thread that doesn’t match is something I haven’t seen from other known Trench pennants. Also the tassels look very different. The font also resembles that of the following pennants, if I had to guess I’d say it’s from this company that produced these in the pic here and also those pictures in post 4432.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by erikc21

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the ‘dots’ after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting! Erik, does the paint have the rough texture like in this pic? Hopefully you can see it, it has a fine grid-like pattern to it. That seems to be unique to pennants of this type.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

IMO first one likely not Trench, primarily due to the construction of the pennant. Wide spine, and the white thread that doesn’t match is something I haven’t seen from other known Trench pennants. Also the tassels look very different. The font also resembles that of the following pennants, if I had to guess I’d say it’s from this company that produced these in the pic here and also those pictures in post 4432.

Why couldn’t every maker just put damn labels on their pennants???

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Why couldn’t every maker just put damn labels on their pennants???

Strangely, Trench applied labels for a very brief time on FB pennants ...

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Interesting! Erik, does the paint have the rough texture like in this pic? Hopefully you can see it, it has a fine grid-like pattern to it. That seems to be unique to pennants of this type.

Here are some closeups I took - looks similar to me!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by erikc21

Here are some closeups I took - looks similar to me!

Trying to figure out the process that would leave that texture.....

Interesting, for sure.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by erikc21

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the ‘dots’ after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Erick, your Eagles pennant is by WGN. Totally sweet design.

I think you're making a good case Greg's St. Louis Browns pennant may be by them, too.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Interesting! Erik, does the paint have the rough texture like in this pic? Hopefully you can see it, it has a fine grid-like pattern to it. That seems to be unique to pennants of this type.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't put too much stock in the texture of screen printed graphics. That "fine grid-like pattern" you reference is the mesh imprint from the stencil carrier. Every maker used these. Some are more pronounced on the final product because, depending on the detail of the design being reproduced, the screen printer would use screens with different mesh counts. This one just looks like they used a coarse screen with a low mesh count.

I printed my "LA Dodgers v. SF Giants "1st. GAME" Pennant (1958)" (https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...e-pennant-1958) using a screen with a mesh count of 160. Anything less than this and the detail of the bridge wouldn't have come out. But for simple designs, like large, block letters with no detail--a lower mesh count will suffice, e.g., 110. Lower mesh counts permit more ink to pass through the screen, resulting in brighter, more opaque graphics.

There's many variables when screen printing a pennant: mesh count of screen used; substrate used (wool, wool blend, or Duvetyne); ink used (lead or non-lead). Within each manufacturer, I'd expect to see evidence of these variables from one design to the next. Therefore, I don't really think each maker had a consistent "screen printing signature" you can use for ID'ing one company from the next. With pennants, that works for things like hand writing, letter scripts, and original artwork used on a piece; but, not so much for screen printing.

With one exception: secondary color applications. The way that each maker added colors to their white underbase during the manufacturing process
did differ. Some used really dull inks (Trench, ADFLAG); others used fluorescent Day-Glo inks (WGN, HANCO).

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

For what it's worth, I wouldn't put too much stock in the texture of screen printed graphics. That "fine grid-like pattern" you reference is the mesh imprint from the stencil carrier. Every maker used these. Some are more pronounced on the final product because, depending on the detail of the design being reproduced, the screen printer would use screens with different mesh counts. This one just looks like they used a coarse screen with a low mesh count.

I printed my "LA Dodgers v. SF Giants "1st. GAME" Pennant (1958)" (https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...e-pennant-1958) using a screen with a mesh count of 160. Anything less than this and the detail of the bridge wouldn't have come out. But for simple designs, like large, block letters with no detail--a lower mesh count will suffice, e.g., 110. Lower mesh counts permit more ink to pass through the screen, resulting in brighter, more opaque graphics.

There's many variables when screen printing a pennant: mesh count of screen used; substrate used (wool, wool blend, or Duvetyne); ink used (lead or non-lead). Within each manufacturer, I'd expect to see evidence of these variables from one design to the next. Therefore, I don't really think each maker had a consistent "screen printing signature" you can use for ID'ing one company from the next. With pennants, that works for things like hand writing, letter scripts, and original artwork used on a piece; but, not so much for screen printing.

With one exception: secondary color applications. The way that each maker added colors to their white underbase during the manufacturing process
did differ. Some used really dull inks (Trench, ADFLAG); others used fluorescent Day-Glo inks (WGN, HANCO).

That’s interesting and it makes sense, but it still seems as if mesh count varies more among manufacturers than within. (Need to perform an ANOVA ... lol.) I only notice this low mesh count on this one style ... not on any of my known Trench or Keezer or even those from the WGN baseball series. ... either way, good stuff

[ooo-ribay]

I have a PDF of Kyle's blog. The copy center quoted me $108 to print it in color . I'm having it printed in black and white for about 20 bucks. If anyone wants a copy, I can send it in a ZIP file. Hit me up at ddgrh8r@gmail.com

Some of you may be able to use company ink...

[Enoch102]

Originally Posted by perezfan

That one has eluded me for many years... never owned one, unfortunately. I am experiencing brain fog, but do think that may be the earliest of all the "scroll" pennants.

Below is a pic containing the following year's World Series Pennant (also a double-scroll...)

If you ever want to get rid of that Braves vs. Indians pennant let me know.

[thetahat]

What stinks is, I’d definitely give a reasonable offer for this ... maybe $50?

[perezfan]

I think the starting bid was in listed in error, and was meant to be 5,000 pennies. So you should be good-to-go!

[ooo-ribay]

Wait. What???? This isn't real?

The seller said it was found hidden away in great granddad's attic.

Seriously, this is how bad it's gotten. I needed a Mitchell and Ness repro just to feed the habit. My question is: was this design ever actually used on an NY Giants pennant? I'm thinking Mark might have it.

[perezfan]

I wish I did....

Had a great shot at the original teens version in an early Mastro Auction, but opted for something else. The Giants was oversized and in very nice shape... and went for only $800 or so. Sure wish I had a time machine!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Wait. What???? This isn't real?

The seller said it was found hidden away in great granddad's attic.

Seriously, this is how bad it's gotten. I needed a Mitchell and Ness repro just to feed the habit. My question is: was this design ever actually used on an NY Giants pennant? I'm thinking Mark might have it.

M&N did better with the "font" than the Batter. The "GIANTS" is well done, but the Batter is not very faithful to the original. Too bad Mastro's archives are no longer accessible. There's a "needle in a haystack" chance I can find the original image in an old catalog, and will post it if I'm lucky enough to find it.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

M&N did better with the "font" than the Batter. The "GIANTS" is well done, but the Batter is not very faithful to the original. Too bad Mastro's archives are no longer accessible. There's a "needle in a haystack" chance I can find the original image in an old catalog, and will post it if I'm lucky enough to find it.

I hope you can find it. How long ago would you guess the auction was? I have some old Mastro catalogs...

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I hope you can find it. How long ago would you guess the auction was? I have some old Mastro catalogs...

Oh man... let's say the 2002 - 2007 timeframe.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Oh man... let's say the 2002 - 2007 timeframe.

I have 21 catalogs to skim through!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I have 21 catalogs to skim through!

Found it in catalog #20 of 21 to be looked through. April 1999. Mark still remembers a pennant that got away 22 years ago. He was right...M&N's font is OK but the batter is different than the original.

Wow, what a trip down memory lane. I think I saw a few of Mark's and Greg's pennants, going through those catalogs. Mastro may have been shady but I'll tell you what....the "Memorabilia is WEAK" thread would not have existed 20 years ago!

[ooo-ribay]

I could have scanned many drool worthy pennants from my search through Mastro catalogs, but I found this piece to be particularly cool. The catalog description identifies the maker as "WGN, Chicago's flagship superstation." WGN, yes, but not the superstation...rather, the pennant and banner maker we know from Kyle's blog and identified by its day-glo colors.

[perezfan]

Great finds, Rob...

Can't believe that Oversized Giants pennant was so long ago. Time really flies. I have a pretty faithful memory for visual imagery. But not as much for dates, numbers and such. I guess that's why I was off by a few years. Regardless, I'm glad you found it. I wonder who has it now?

Complete agree.... the memorabilia offerings back then were off the charts compared to now. I think people are now holding on to this stuff, because there's no assurance it will ever resurface. Thus, the drought we're currently experiencing. I guess the next big wave will happen as these collector/hoarders age out. That was a polite way of saying "kick the bucket".

[ooo-ribay]

I don't know why I did a scan. Here's a photo. One of those Mastro catalogs had two full pages of maybe 20-30 oversized pennants from the early 1900s. I should have taken a pic but don't think I want to search through those 21 catalogs again.

[perezfan]

Wow... I knew from memory, they did a poor job replicating the Batter. But upon closer inspection, that really sucks!

[Ribbens]

Can someone help me identify the year of this Boston Bruins orange with black edge felt pennant with a "bruin bear" in the goal?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Ribbens

Can someone help me identify the year of this Boston Bruins orange with black edge felt pennant with a "bruin bear" in the goal?

Precise year no. Decade? Likely 1970s. Though I've never seen it in orange.

[Ribbens]

Thanks, I just won it in an auction and pick it up tomorrow. Thanks

[Duluth Eskimo]

It’s earlier than that. 1960’s. This pennant is usually done in yellow with black graphics. Did you win the others too? It looks like a nice group of 60’s hockey pennants.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

It’s earlier than that. 1960’s. This pennant is usually done in yellow with black graphics. Did you win the others too? It looks like a nice group of 60’s hockey pennants.

Possible, but I'm pretty sure this pennant was made into the 1970s. There are some made of very thin material that I don't believe was used in the 1960s. Would need a better picture.

[Fballguy]

This stuff...You see many 1970s football bootlegs made of it. Prone to puckering at the spine.

[Djcmac1]

Here’s one from my collection! Newbie here! Lots of great pics!

[Duluth Eskimo]

It was made in to the 70’s yes. The one you show I believe started being sold in the 60’s. I believe the one he showed is earlier than this one, but this is the one I was referring to that is more common.

[Djcmac1]

Hello here’s that pic.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Djcmac1

Here’s one from my collection! Newbie here! Lots of great pics!

Welcome!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Djcmac1

Hello here’s that pic.

Always loved that one.... a 1960s classic!

Welcome, and hoping to see more of your "stuff" as we move along!

[Djcmac1]

Glad I found this spot! Here’s another of my favorites. 1985 Syracuse chiefs IL champions. Crime dog, henke, stagmen, Cerruti, gruber, basically this team became the blue jays series champs!

[erikc21]

Hey guys -

I can’t remember if this topic was discussed before, but have you seen pennant spines sewed like this...intentionally? Both ends folded over and sewed? Seems like a strange design concept...

[murphusa]

Not perfect but fun all the same

[murphusa]

a few others from the last month

[bocca001]

Erik- sweet Oilers pennant! I've never seen that one.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by erikc21

Hey guys -

I can’t remember if this topic was discussed before, but have you seen pennant spines sewed like this...intentionally? Both ends folded over and sewed? Seems like a strange design concept...

I've heard about that pennant. It was made during the great scissors shortage of 1964.

In all seriousness...I love it and have never seen it. But if it were ever to become available, I'd defer to Marc.

[perezfan]

Agree.... Never seen another Oilers (or any pennant) made quite like that. Kind of a cool idea, IMHO.

Gotta be the rarest Oilers made... just fantastic, Erik!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Not perfect but fun all the same

These are four cool pennants. Phillies Blue Jay is a classic. Senators is a neat color and the graphics colors are very bold, they usually fade on this pennant. And the Athletics might be my favorite of all stadium pennants. Congrats!

[ooo-ribay]

Great pennants, Murph!

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Djcmac1

Hello here’s that pic.

Welcome to Net54. Nice Orioles Pennant. Here's another Orioles pennant that I picked up recently.

[UKCardGuy]

This Gettysburg pennant was in a lot that I won recently.

Am I right that it dates from the early 1900s?