Revisiting the 1910 PC805 Novelty Cutlery Postcard set.

[Baseball Rarities]

Steve - They are definitely confusing sets. I have scoured period periodicals for any hints on when they were issued, but have not come up with anything unlike the newspaper accounts that exist for the the PC760 Rose Co. set dating it to August of 1908 and for the PC765 AC Dietsche offering dating it to October of 1907.

It is not surprising that numerous postmarks exist for the both these sets from these exact months. Outside of printed visual evidence, I think that postmarks are a good way to date a set. They at least give you a definitive date as to when the cards were available to the public. Unfortunately, in the case of both the PC796 and PC805 sets, there are not a lot of examples known with postmarks. The earliest postmark that I have in my files for a PC796 Sepia postcard is October 14, 1910 for a PC805 Novelty Cutlery is September 27, 1911.

The images used in the postcards also have clues, such as the Cobb/Wagner image used in the PC796 and PC805 sets. It is from the 1909 World Series, so we know that that specific postcard was not issued until after that date. It is doubtful that any company would have issued the set after the World Series since interest in baseball would have been waning. Instead, it would make more sense that they would wait until the following baseball season to release them - possible waiting until the times of the 1910 World Series and 1911 World Series, which coincide with the earliest postmarks that we currently know of.

There are other images in the sets that picture players with uniforms that seem to be unique to the 1909 season, so again, these cards would have had to have been produced after those dates. I forget which ones they are, but I think that many of the Cubs players are pictured in their 1909 uniforms.

Yes, there are some images in the set that are dated earlier, but, as we know, card manufacturers were always using old photos for their sets. For example, the 1908 Rose Co. postcard of Honus Wagner uses a Horner image taken in 1903.

It is very frustrating that nothing more definitive has come up for the PC796 Anonymous Sepia or the PC805 Novelty Cutlery sets.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Steve - They are definitely confusing sets. I have scoured period newspapers for any hints on when they were issued, but have not come up with anything.

Newspaper accounts exist for the The Rose Co. set dating it to August of 1908 and for the AC Dietsche offering dating it to October of 1907.

It is very frustrating that nothing more definitive has come up for the PC805 Novelty Cutlery or the PC796 Anonymous Sepia sets.

What do you think about the theory the 796s were produced first, even if just by a few months possibly?

I looked for articles a few years ago in hopes to find something like those sets you mentioned...yup, frustrating.

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

What do you think about the theory the 796s were produced first, even if just by a few months possibly?

I looked for articles a few years ago in hopes to find something like those sets you mentioned...yup, frustrating.

It is really hard to say. They definitely do not have as a finished look as the PC805s.

[Baseball Rarities]

Here are the 1909 Chicago Cubs postcard images of Brown, Chance and Overall that date to 1909.

I believe that the uniforms that Chase, Dooin, Johnson and Street all date from 1909 as well.

These beautiful cards are not mine. I stole the images from the interweb.

[phlflyer1]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

I believe that the uniforms that Chase, Dooin, Johnson and Street all date from 1909 as well.

Hi Kevin,

Dooin is my lone type example and you are 100% correct that he is pictured in a 1909 uniform.

Phillies 1909 Uniforms
http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...if&Entryid=148

Phillies 1900-1967 Uniforms
http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.o...ement=68&pos=1

[Casey2296]

Kevin's knowledge and expertise on these and the RPC sets is incredible and I would consider him one of the leading authorities. Just a theory but it seems to me the 796 preceded the 805. I do think both sets are connected in some way, one thought is Novelty produced both sets, 796 in 1910, 805 in 11. The problem with that argument is why would Novelty do anything without putting their name on it. Another is that Novelty produced the set for someone else in 10 and produced a refined one for themselves in 11. I think the key is who controlled and licensed those images at the time.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Kevin's knowledge and expertise on these and the RPC sets is incredible and I would consider him one of the leading authorities. Just a theory but it seems to me the 796 preceded the 805. I do think both sets are connected in some way, one thought is Novelty produced both sets, 796 in 1910, 805 in 11. The problem with that argument is why would Novelty do anything without putting their name on it. Another is that Novelty produced the set for someone else in 10 and produced a refined one for themselves in 11. I think the key is who controlled and licensed those images at the time.

Yup, the 796s are lacking the refinement on that end too as the 805s clearly state the NC Canton O in them.

Kevin can correct me here, but the earliest cancelled NC is 1911 while the earliest 796 is 1910...maybe the NC is a 1911 issue while the 796s were issued late 1910 post Frock image and distributed that fall...

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Kevin can correct me here, but the earliest cancelled NC is 1911 while the earliest 796 is 1910...

Yes, those are the earliest postmarks that I know of. But, like Rick mentioned, there are not many PC796 and PC805 postcards known with postmarks which is also kind of weird.

Rick quotes 2% of the known postcards have postmarks, which seems to be in the ballpark with me. Other postcards sets have a much higher percentage - usually in the 10 to 20% range.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Baseball Rarities

Yes, those are the earliest postmarks that I know of. But, like Rick mentioned, there are not many PC796 and PC805 postcards known with postmarks which is also kind of weird.

Rick quotes 2% of the known postcards have postmarks, which seems to be in the ballpark with me. Other postcards sets have a much higher percentage - usually in the 10 to 20% range.

Yeah, super low numbers. Maybe if they were give aways with a purchase that has been proposed, the people that bought the product didnt really want the PCs, they wanted the product and hence there are low pops and way lower cancelled cards.

Its all just a guess...the 1910 and 1911 theory does seem to fit though. I mean what are the odds the 805s preceded the 796s? Just seems low to me, nothing is consistent in the 796 production while nearly everything is uniform in the 805s. Some of the names on the 805s are off set to the left, while others are centered. The 805s continued the first name theme only have the same few the 796s had.

Why does Speaker have that symbol next to his name on the 796? Why is Frock even in this set? Rick has a good theory of rep preceding him, just seems like they could have picked someone else, someone they had an image of already if his was from 1910 as theorized.

[Casey2296]

I also think it's significant that the Novelty Cutlery company was located at their new factory at 67 Barr St in 1910 with an adjacent photo studio/gallery depicted in the lower left of the postcard Leon just acquired.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I also think it's significant that the Novelty Cutlery company was located at their new factory at 67 Barr St in 1910 with an adjacent photo studio/gallery depicted in the lower left of the postcard Leon just acquired.

Great card, should have snagged it.

What does the print say in the bottom right? Would be nice to have a date on that move into the new building. PC image looks like summer...

[Casey2296]

Lower right:
1st line looks like RUMD/illegible
2nd line: Martin & Co
3rd line: Detroit

We know they were located at Bar St. in 1910, we also know that the sets were probably not produced prior to that thanks to Kevin's research.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I also think it's significant that the Novelty Cutlery company was located at their new factory at 67 Barr St in 1910 with an adjacent photo studio/gallery depicted in the lower left of the postcard Leon just acquired.

Thanks Phil. It has great clarity in hand.

.