Hey, pennant guys

[Fballguy]

Well...Allow me to retort...

"You can't know it all yourself. If you think you do, you're destined for mediocrity."

--Donald J. Trump

"The dumbest people I know are the ones who know it all."

--Malcolm Forbes

"The less a person knows, the more stubbornly they know it"

--Rajneesh

"The biggest idiot you will meet in life is the person that thinks they know everything."

--Christopher Jones

"Trench never used that color thread."

--Greg Manco

Mark...I respect your opinions greatly and thank you for sharing them. Obviously, you're considered an authority on the topic of pennant collecting, that's why your name appears in the acknowledgments of Mike Egner's book (oddly, I don't see Greg mentioned. Puzzling). But Mark, in your own words, “cleaning is fine” (Post #4383) and this is not intended as an accusation in the least…just a reminder…you’ve told me that you use fabric glue to secure loose spines. You even told me the brand…FabriTac. Now I’m sure you didn’t do this to deceive, I just know you’ve sold quite a few pennants via LOTG and elsewhere recently. I don’t ever remember reading about fabric glue in any of the descriptions. Maybe you haven’t sold these pennants yet. I mention this only to show the variability that exists in the arbitrary pennant rulebook.

Greg himself has his own set of arbitrary and self serving rules (See Posts #3685 and #4378). He feels gluing a photo on a picture pennant is fine but gluing tassels isn’t. Coincidently he just happened to have a pennant with a loose picture. How convenient is that? And he’s a big fan of Retro Clean (Note his use of the word “another” from which we can deduce he’s done this more than once). But fear not, we can all be sure, when it’s time to sell…He’ll “disclose” he washed (and glued) his pennants.

My thoughts on cleaning also appear in post #4378, so they shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone, least of all Greg since he lives on the forum probably more than anyone (even Rob) and I doubt he’s ever missed a post.

As much as he'd like to think he is, the pennant savant is not the James Beckett of pennants. There is no James Beckett of pennants. Just as there is no PSA for pennants or grading system for pennants. The closest we have is Mike Egner and he states...

"All price ranges given are on the condition that the pennant is in excellent condition, with no alterations. Alterations would include:

*Trimmed or cut edges
*Colored in Graphics
*Dates or names written on pennant
*Tassels cut off"

You'll note there is no mention of cleaning.

And while we all have differing opinions, much as we would like them to be, none of them are hobby accepted standards or rules. They are just opinions. In 25 years of pennant collecting, I've never seen one description that said "this pennant has been cleaned". Yet, Dave "The Pennant King" Stark (I think King outranks Savant, can anyone confirm?) has an entire section on pennant cleaning on his website and states that he receives regular inquiries on how to clean pennants. How can it be that none of these cleaned pennants have ever been sold? He also states it was common practice in the 50's and 60's for people to mix and match spine and tassels more to their color liking. So, any effort to identify a pennant's origins via spine/tassel...or better yet...wait for it...thread color is a fool's errand. For the record, I told Greg if he could produce just one listing since the dawn of time that stated a pennant had been cleaned, I’d let him keep the pennant in addition to refunding his money. I haven’t received anything.

Once disclosing cleaning becomes the norm, I'll include it in my descriptions. In the mean time, when I sell my house, I clean it. When I sell my car, I clean it. And when I sell my 1983 Journey Concert T-Shirt, I don't disclose that it once had a Boone's Farm stain on it. Too each his own. If you prefer your pennants with 70 years of dirt go buy one like that. In the mean time, when I sell something, I want it to look as good as possible.

[Fballguy]

As for Greg...His reputation as a PIA and bully predates my dealings with him, but I quickly got to experience this myself. The first incident involved a 1960 All Star Game pennant that had a defect in the graphic that was CLEARLY VISIBLE in the pictures I sent him. Greg is a devil for the details...except when those details ARE SHARED WITH HIM (as evidenced by his recent purchase of a Dallas Texans pennant that looked like it was constructed out of parchment paper and duct tape).

Anyway, the 60 All Star Game pennant was his first return...until I offered to refund $50 (off his already Friends & Family discounted price) and let him keep it. He jumped on that. Annoying for sure, but he's a community member so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then in the months following, he proceeded to dictate low ball offers to me and then pitch a fit when I accepted better offers. It was at that point he was added to my "do not sell" list (a list that is comprised of one name). Sadly, I didn't know his ebay user ID so I couldn't block him. And what does this genius do? The genius that thinks I'm dishonest? Last week he buys another of my pennants. I immediately texted a couple people on this forum and said get your popcorn ready because I knew what was coming. The self proclaimed pennant savant did not disappoint.

Just so there's crystal clarity, I have no problem with anyone returning anything I sell. On ebay, I have nearly 4,000 positive feedbacks and zero negatives, earned over 20+ years. I think my reputation speaks for itself. My problem lies clearly and only with one person.

[Fballguy]

Last word...Greg really thinks he knows the color of every thread Trench ever used. Yet, he can't tell if the spine and tassels are original? This is the mentality you're dealing with if you choose to interact with him (not to mention his arbitrary, hypocritical and self serving rules). Good luck.

[thetahat]

Oops, accidental duplicate ..

[thetahat]

Holy s*** this guy is completely unhinged! LOL

I’ll just point out the one gigantic lie above, namely that he didn’t know my eBay ID, as I bought this from him on eBay shortly *after* he sold me the pennant repaired with super glue. (It was last September.) I won’t waste my time boring you with the other stuff, except to say it’s basically a big pile of crazy, if it isn’t already obvious.

But let’s remember how we got here ... he expected me to shrug off an alteration that he didn’t disclose. I simply requested a refund, he agreed to give one to me but not without insulting me in the process. This wasn’t some old lady who skims flea markets and has no experience with this stuff, but a collector who should and does know better. Clearly he was hoping to pass it off to someone who wouldn’t care or know to look for it. I unfortunately spoiled his plans to pull a fast one. Temporarily, I’m sure.

[thetahat]

And since this liar can’t even quote me accurately, I’ll post my complete email reply to him that discusses the purple thread.

Big difference between saying “Trench never used that color thread” and “... purple thread which I can’t recall ever being used ...” .... and for that matter, only mentioned as what tipped me off that something wasn’t right.

While we’re talking about other red flags, and since this surely isn’t the first or last of your altered-to-flip pennant creations, please also be aware that Trench didn’t knot the ends of each stitch as on this pennant ... this, of course, is why their original tassels often fell out. Something for the rest of you to look for if you’ve purchased from him.

Lastly, as for him sorting through my old posts to try to claim I am self serving ... I have no issue with someone cleaning and even repairing pennants for personal display. I’ve done it. I’ll probably do it again. But I am pretty much exclusively a buyer/collector. The line is drawn when it comes to *selling* them, and simply having the integrity to disclose what you have done. And actually if I ever do sell the few I have fixed up, I’ll do exactly that, even though you’d like to pretend otherwise to convince yourself that you’re actually not morally wrong here.

If it’s no big deal, why not just disclose what you did? Because the answer is obvious.

That’s all I have to say about this, unless it is to disprove more lies.

[Fballguy]

This guy thinks I have his eBay ID committed to memory because of one sale 7 months ago? I didn’t even know who “Greg Manco” was until Marc B mentioned the name. I asked who that was and he connected the dots to Net54 for me. That was within the past year. I didn’t even realize it was you this time until I printed the shipping label. Get over yourself. You’re not that important Greg.

And I’d love to hear the “super glue” story. This is news to me. Please share the details. I don’t know what’s weirder. That you didn’t mention it at the time (extremely unbelievable) or that you kept hounding me for more pennants right up until just last week.

[Fballguy]

And if anyone here isn’t happy with a pennant I sold them, by all means let me know. I’d especially like to get my Niners pennants back from Marc B.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

This guy thinks I have his eBay ID committed to memory because of one sale 7 months ago? I didn’t even know who “Greg Manco” was until Marc B mentioned the name. I asked who that was and he connected the dots to Net54 for me. That was within the past year. I didn’t even realize it was you this time until I printed the shipping label. Get over yourself. You’re not that important Greg.

And I’d love to hear the “super glue” story. This is news to me. Please share the details. I don’t know what’s weirder. That you didn’t mention it at the time (extremely unbelievable) or that you kept hounding me for more pennants right up until just last week.

Well I said I was done with this unless I had to disprove more lies from this guy, and here I am back again so you know what that means. He claims I never mentioned the glue on the ASG pennant “at the time”. Here’s my email to him upon receiving the ASG pennant, back in September.

Can you please do me a favor and stop lying now?

The one thing I’d fix in that email is my giving him the benefit of the doubt that he acquired it this way. I still have no proof otherwise, except that now I wouldn’t trust him for an accurate weather report if we were both standing outside.

[thetahat]

Seriously Rob, just stop lying. I could ask you to produce evidence of me throwing a “hissy fit” when you didn’t accept my offers, but of course you can’t, because I didn’t. Just please ... tell ... the ... truth. You’ll find that life is easier that way. I can start forgetting about your very existence and you can resume pushing fugazi Frankenpennants on unknowing eBayers.

[Fballguy]

You truly are a lunatic. I referenced the defect in the graphic in my earlier response. Can you please go back and circle where you mentioned "Super Glue". Oh what's that? You meant "glue" not "Super Glue"? Are you lying or did you misremember what you had actually said in the email? In Manco Land is only Greg allowed to misremember? All I remembered was that you complained about something that was visible in the picture.

And here's the fun part. I paid $280 for that pennant. I wouldn't have paid $280 if the paint was hanging off as you theorize it must have been. Then I let you have it for $230 and on top of that I refunded another $50! So by all means, if you want to sell me that beautiful pennant for $180, I'll take it. Where do I send the money?

$180 for a 1960 All Star Game pennant that is in otherwise mint condition and you think I'm ripping you off? Prove it by selling it back to me.

And since we're sharing emails, here's my initial reply in which I so egregiously insulted him...though it's odd he'd be offended by being told he's no longer welcome to buy pennants from someone he considers dishonest. Then again, he continued to buy and/or try to buy my pennants long after the 1960 AS Game sale so who knows how this guy thinks.

By all means send it back. As an FYI...I took the spine and tassels off to soak them in Oxy Clean foam. They were pretty dirty but not damaged so I figured they'd clean up nicely which they did. I thought the spine was reattached pretty cleanly but if you're not satisfied, no worries.

It will probably be easier for both of us if you just don't buy anything from me. Seems you have quite a few issues with me (and others). No offense intended. Hope you understand.

PS...I highly recommend Oxi Clean Foam for cleaning tassels and spines. Works fast and doesn't damage the material at all.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

This guy thinks I have his eBay ID committed to memory because of one sale 7 months ago? I didn’t even know who “Greg Manco” was until Marc B mentioned the name. I asked who that was and he connected the dots to Net54 for me. That was within the past year. I didn’t even realize it was you this time until I printed the shipping label. Get over yourself. You’re not that important Greg.

And I’d love to hear the “super glue” story. This is news to me. Please share the details. I don’t know what’s weirder. That you didn’t mention it at the time (extremely unbelievable) or that you kept hounding me for more pennants right up until just last week.

And one more note on this...There are numerous people on this forum who can corroborate that the Pennant Almighty has been on my "do not sell" list for months. I'm fine with any of you, if you are so inclined, verifying that. I'd hate for Greg to go on thinking that I lied about not knowing his ebay user ID.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

And one more note on this...There are numerous people on this forum who can corroborate that the Pennant Almighty has been on my "do not sell" list for months. I'm fine with any of you, if you are so inclined, verifying that. I'd hate for Greg to go on thinking that I lied about not knowing his ebay user ID.

I could give a s*** if I was on your “do not sell” list. I’m obviously on that list because you can’t sell me altered pennants without me calling you out on it. I take this as a badge of honor. And of course you could have fixed that by just getting in touch with me right after the sale and, you know, actually being upfront and honest about what you did.

Again, we have a deal on that ASG pennant.

Greg