Hey, pennant guys

[thetahat]

Question... suppose you paid a decent amount for a pennant, say over $100. You notice that the spine is not attached as it was originally, as you can clearly see the holes from the original stitching. Because, as avid collectors, we all know to look for certain things. Seller did not disclose this, upon reaching out to him he claims to have removed it to clean and then reattached it, says that it is not a transplant. I think either way, that’s something that should be disclosed due to the fact that it is not entirely original - many people might not care but I hold that it should at least be disclosed to let the potential buyers decide.

What are your thoughts? Is this reasoning valid, or am I an “uber anal retentive freak” (seller’s exact words) for not just shrugging off his undisclosed alteration?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Question... suppose you paid a decent amount for a pennant, say over $100. You notice that the spine is not attached as it was originally, as you can clearly see the holes from the original stitching. Because, as avid collectors, we all know to look for certain things. Seller did not disclose this, upon reaching out to him he claims to have removed it to clean and then reattached it, says that it is not a transplant. I think either way, that’s something that should be disclosed due to the fact that it is not entirely original - many people might not care but I hold that it should at least be disclosed to let the potential buyers decide.

What are your thoughts? Is this reasoning valid, or am I an “uber anal retentive freak” (seller’s exact words) for not just shrugging off his undisclosed alteration?

Agree...

Any alteration including bleaching, trimming, re-coloring, spine transplant or tassel replacement must be disclosed. I can easily give a "pass" to ironing and removing pet hair with tape or a lint roller. Those more minor improvements do not change the original makeup or construction of the pennant.

The only grey area (to me) is the trimming of loose/stray threads on a cloth pennant. I personally don't think it's an issue, unless the scissors were to accidentally cut into the actual body of the pennant. Just my .02

[Fballguy]

.

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Question... suppose you paid a decent amount for a pennant, say over $100. You notice that the spine is not attached as it was originally, as you can clearly see the holes from the original stitching. Because, as avid collectors, we all know to look for certain things. Seller did not disclose this, upon reaching out to him he claims to have removed it to clean and then reattached it, says that it is not a transplant. I think either way, that’s something that should be disclosed due to the fact that it is not entirely original - many people might not care but I hold that it should at least be disclosed to let the potential buyers decide.

What are your thoughts? Is this reasoning valid, or am I an “uber anal retentive freak” (seller’s exact words) for not just shrugging off his undisclosed alteration?

This topic is complicated and filled with nuance IMHO. First, I think intent matters. I am not the best at crazy detailed descriptions when I sell, but I personally never try to mislead or omit information. I know I've sold to people in this forum and once or twice the condition wasn't what the buyer hoped for...in one case the camera phone made the pennant lot look brighter than it was, in another case there was a small portion of the spine (perhaps an inch) no longer attached. In both cases, I did not try to mislead the buyer... in one case the buyer returned the pennant lot, in the other I gave a significant discount. In both instances, since the buyers were a part of this forum, I really tried to make it right. I've also bought from people on this forum and in one case the condition wasn't what I completely expected, but again, I don't think it was intentional and because we're friends, I didn't give it a second thought. What's the point of dwelling on it? Finally, I've traded with people on this forum and in one example, the pennant I traded was believed to be fake. In that circumstance, we came up with an amicable solution. Point is, regardless of what character I am in the transaction, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt if I feel their intent is good. Hard to do when you don't know the person on the other end!

Now, I have bleached pennants before - improving their condition - and sold them. I didn't disclose it as I felt improved the aesthetics and I personally didn't think the disclosure was necessary. I can see how a purist may disagree, but my lack of disclosure wasn't to mislead...in fact, I felt it would confuse matters. But, that's just me!

Replacing a spine or trimming a flag (somewhat easy to see), if known, should be disclosed in my opinion. If somebody takes the spine off to clean it...that seems okay to me. I suppose it's impossible to know if the seller swapped the spine out, but again, if the person has a good reputation, then I'd trust that.

My point is, I think it depends and it's not a binary right/wrong.

my 2 cents

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by erikc21

This topic is complicated and filled with nuance IMHO. First, I think intent matters. I am not the best at crazy detailed descriptions when I sell, but I personally never try to mislead or omit information. I know I've sold to people in this forum and once or twice the condition wasn't what the buyer hoped for...in one case the camera phone made the pennant lot look brighter than it was, in another case there was a small portion of the spine (perhaps an inch) no longer attached. In both cases, I did not try to mislead the buyer... in one case the buyer returned the pennant lot, in the other I gave a significant discount. In both instances, since the buyers were a part of this forum, I really tried to make it right. I've also bought from people on this forum and in one case the condition wasn't what I completely expected, but again, I don't think it was intentional and because we're friends, I didn't give it a second thought. What's the point of dwelling on it? Finally, I've traded with people on this forum and in one example, the pennant I traded was believed to be fake. In that circumstance, we came up with an amicable solution. Point is, regardless of what character I am in the transaction, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt if I feel their intent is good. Hard to do when you don't know the person on the other end!

Now, I have bleached pennants before - improving their condition - and sold them. I didn't disclose it as I felt improved the aesthetics and I personally didn't think the disclosure was necessary. I can see how a purist may disagree, but my lack of disclosure wasn't to mislead...in fact, I felt it would confuse matters. But, that's just me!

Replacing a spine or trimming a flag (somewhat easy to see), if known, should be disclosed in my opinion. If somebody takes the spine off to clean it...that seems okay to me. I suppose it's impossible to know if the seller swapped the spine out, but again, if the person has a good reputation, then I'd trust that.

My point is, I think it depends and it's not a binary right/wrong.

my 2 cents

Good insight, guys. I have no problem with someone who fixes up a pennant for personal display. But it has to be disclosed IMO if resold, if original stitching is replaced. Let the buyers/bidders decide. I have a host of questions that I usually ask about a pennant if I don’t know the seller and if it seems that the seller has no experience with pennants. I think such a person might not think twice about innocently trimming a pennant, etc. In this case it was a seller who clearly should know better. I’m getting a refund - it’s owed to me of course, given the circumstances - so still it’s not really the fact that he tried to pull one off at my expense. Well maybe a little since I’m not a complete stranger to this guy. Like Erik suggests you should perhaps take extra care with people you know and people who have previously purchased from you. But it’s the fact that he had the chutzpah to insinuate that I was the problem in the transaction that really irked me.

As a side note, I do suspect it’s a full spine transplant, but either way given the totality of circumstances I believe disclosure was required.

[Fballguy]

Duplicate post. Deleted

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Duplicate post. Deleted

No worries, as long as it gets us toward a million views!

I see we did hit the 5000th post. This thread: my greatest lifetime achievement.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

No worries, as long as it gets us toward a million views!

I see we did hit the 5000th post. This thread: my greatest lifetime achievement.

LOL...I didn't know if the post was too long or if the reference to Trump was filtering it directly to the recycle bin. It didn't show up for an hour and only after I tried a third time at which point all three posted. But happy to help the cause.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

No worries, as long as it gets us toward a million views!

I see we did hit the 5000th post. This thread: my greatest lifetime achievement.

5,014 posts, and counting.... and 5,000 of them make for great reading!

Seriously, it's pretty clear that every collector sees these things differently, and there is no clear cut "right or wrong". I gave my opinion on disclosure, which is just that... an opinion. I tend to suffer from some level of OCD, and that definitely sways my thinking. Other "more normal" people are (I'm sure) have more lenient standards.

Hopefully we can all get along as we have up to this point. In all seriousness, I have really enjoyed trading and dealing with every single person here. This great thread has had an incredible run, and has the most views of any on net54 (including the main card side!) It would be a shame to see it turn negative as a result of this minor bump in the road.

[Fballguy]

Duplicate post. Deleted.

[Fballguy]

Well...Allow me to retort...

"You can't know it all yourself. If you think you do, you're destined for mediocrity."

--Donald J. Trump

"The dumbest people I know are the ones who know it all."

--Malcolm Forbes

"The less a person knows, the more stubbornly they know it"

--Rajneesh

"The biggest idiot you will meet in life is the person that thinks they know everything."

--Christopher Jones

"Trench never used that color thread."

--Greg Manco

Mark...I respect your opinions greatly and thank you for sharing them. Obviously, you're considered an authority on the topic of pennant collecting, that's why your name appears in the acknowledgments of Mike Egner's book (oddly, I don't see Greg mentioned. Puzzling). But Mark, in your own words, “cleaning is fine” (Post #4383) and this is not intended as an accusation in the least…just a reminder…you’ve told me that you use fabric glue to secure loose spines. You even told me the brand…FabriTac. Now I’m sure you didn’t do this to deceive, I just know you’ve sold quite a few pennants via LOTG and elsewhere recently. I don’t ever remember reading about fabric glue in any of the descriptions. Maybe you haven’t sold these pennants yet. I mention this only to show the variability that exists in the arbitrary pennant rulebook.

Greg himself has his own set of arbitrary and self serving rules (See Posts #3685 and #4378). He feels gluing a photo on a picture pennant is fine but gluing tassels isn’t. Coincidently he just happened to have a pennant with a loose picture. How convenient is that? And he’s a big fan of Retro Clean (Note his use of the word “another” from which we can deduce he’s done this more than once). But fear not, we can all be sure, when it’s time to sell…He’ll “disclose” he washed (and glued) his pennants.

My thoughts on cleaning also appear in post #4378, so they shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone, least of all Greg since he lives on the forum probably more than anyone (even Rob) and I doubt he’s ever missed a post.

As much as he'd like to think he is, the pennant savant is not the James Beckett of pennants. There is no James Beckett of pennants. Just as there is no PSA for pennants or grading system for pennants. The closest we have is Mike Egner and he states...

"All price ranges given are on the condition that the pennant is in excellent condition, with no alterations. Alterations would include:

*Trimmed or cut edges
*Colored in Graphics
*Dates or names written on pennant
*Tassels cut off"

You'll note there is no mention of cleaning.

And while we all have differing opinions, much as we would like them to be, none of them are hobby accepted standards or rules. They are just opinions. In 25 years of pennant collecting, I've never seen one description that said "this pennant has been cleaned". Yet, Dave "The Pennant King" Stark (I think King outranks Savant, can anyone confirm?) has an entire section on pennant cleaning on his website and states that he receives regular inquiries on how to clean pennants. How can it be that none of these cleaned pennants have ever been sold? He also states it was common practice in the 50's and 60's for people to mix and match spine and tassels more to their color liking. So, any effort to identify a pennant's origins via spine/tassel...or better yet...wait for it...thread color is a fool's errand. For the record, I told Greg if he could produce just one listing since the dawn of time that stated a pennant had been cleaned, I’d let him keep the pennant in addition to refunding his money. I haven’t received anything.

Once disclosing cleaning becomes the norm, I'll include it in my descriptions. In the mean time, when I sell my house, I clean it. When I sell my car, I clean it. And when I sell my 1983 Journey Concert T-Shirt, I don't disclose that it once had a Boone's Farm stain on it. Too each his own. If you prefer your pennants with 70 years of dirt go buy one like that. In the mean time, when I sell something, I want it to look as good as possible.

[Fballguy]

As for Greg...His reputation as a PIA and bully predates my dealings with him, but I quickly got to experience this myself. The first incident involved a 1960 All Star Game pennant that had a defect in the graphic that was CLEARLY VISIBLE in the pictures I sent him. Greg is a devil for the details...except when those details ARE SHARED WITH HIM (as evidenced by his recent purchase of a Dallas Texans pennant that looked like it was constructed out of parchment paper and duct tape).

Anyway, the 60 All Star Game pennant was his first return...until I offered to refund $50 (off his already Friends & Family discounted price) and let him keep it. He jumped on that. Annoying for sure, but he's a community member so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then in the months following, he proceeded to dictate low ball offers to me and then pitch a fit when I accepted better offers. It was at that point he was added to my "do not sell" list (a list that is comprised of one name). Sadly, I didn't know his ebay user ID so I couldn't block him. And what does this genius do? The genius that thinks I'm dishonest? Last week he buys another of my pennants. I immediately texted a couple people on this forum and said get your popcorn ready because I knew what was coming. The self proclaimed pennant savant did not disappoint.

Just so there's crystal clarity, I have no problem with anyone returning anything I sell. On ebay, I have nearly 4,000 positive feedbacks and zero negatives, earned over 20+ years. I think my reputation speaks for itself. My problem lies clearly and only with one person.

[Fballguy]

Last word...Greg really thinks he knows the color of every thread Trench ever used. Yet, he can't tell if the spine and tassels are original? This is the mentality you're dealing with if you choose to interact with him (not to mention his arbitrary, hypocritical and self serving rules). Good luck.

[thetahat]

Oops, accidental duplicate ..

[thetahat]

Holy s*** this guy is completely unhinged! LOL

I’ll just point out the one gigantic lie above, namely that he didn’t know my eBay ID, as I bought this from him on eBay shortly *after* he sold me the pennant repaired with super glue. (It was last September.) I won’t waste my time boring you with the other stuff, except to say it’s basically a big pile of crazy, if it isn’t already obvious.

But let’s remember how we got here ... he expected me to shrug off an alteration that he didn’t disclose. I simply requested a refund, he agreed to give one to me but not without insulting me in the process. This wasn’t some old lady who skims flea markets and has no experience with this stuff, but a collector who should and does know better. Clearly he was hoping to pass it off to someone who wouldn’t care or know to look for it. I unfortunately spoiled his plans to pull a fast one. Temporarily, I’m sure.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Question... suppose you paid a decent amount for a pennant, say over $100. You notice that the spine is not attached as it was originally, as you can clearly see the holes from the original stitching. Because, as avid collectors, we all know to look for certain things. Seller did not disclose this, upon reaching out to him he claims to have removed it to clean and then reattached it, says that it is not a transplant. I think either way, that’s something that should be disclosed due to the fact that it is not entirely original - many people might not care but I hold that it should at least be disclosed to let the potential buyers decide.

What are your thoughts? Is this reasoning valid, or am I an “uber anal retentive freak” (seller’s exact words) for not just shrugging off his undisclosed alteration?

So, instead of the Pennant Savant we should now refer to you as the Uber Anal Retentive Freak?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

so, instead of the pennant savant we should now refer to you as the uber anal retentive freak?

lololol!

[perezfan]

I'll vouch for Erik any day of the week... one of the very best guys on this forum and a great collector/friend. But I will play Devil's advocate, in regard to the bleaching disclosure. Bleaching can make substances more brittle over time. It can definitely affect vintage felt and make it "crispy" (for lack of a better word). Nothing wrong with doing it, as it is definitely the owner's prerogative. But when selling it really should be disclosed, IMHO.

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I'll vouch for Erik any day of the week... one of the very best guys on this forum and a great collector/friend. But I will play Devil's advocate, in regard to the bleaching disclosure. Bleaching can make substances more brittle over time. It can definitely affect vintage felt and make it "crispy" (for lack of a better word). Nothing wrong with doing it, as it is definitely the owner's prerogative. But when selling it really should be disclosed, IMHO.

Thanks, Mark! The feelings are mutual! And don’t get me wrong, you and most people on this forum are more avid collectors than I am, so my perspective is just that, my perspective...perhaps less seasoned, too. I do see your point and it’s a good one. I will say I typically don’t sell ‘high-end’ items so if I post condition as ‘good’, ‘fair’ or ‘vintage’, my general thought is there are flaws/integrity issues. But your comments are well taken and you’ve always been great to deal with - even if my descriptions aren’t the best