Grading Technical vs. Overall Appeal

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I don't agree that grading companies are supposed to line up grades based on secondary market value for the collector. They are supposed to authenticate and grade based on certain stated parameters. The collector then actually looks at the card and decides for themselves if they like the appearance, centering, registration, etc. and sets the market price with their bids. Some sets/cards have issues with centering, some with registration, but not all cards are the same. OJs can be high grade and look terrible where you can't even see the image, while a Jim Brown RC (I know, football and not prewar) can be low grade but command a higher price if it's centered because it's a tough card to find centered. The eye appeal should be left to the collector while technicalities can be the job of the grader.

Disagree. Eye appeal should be factored into the grade. The current model is broken and senseless. Who decided upon the current parameters, anyway? When many 2s look better than 6s, it indicates there is a problem.

Back in the 90s (when grading was in its infancy), I was at SCP's brick and mortar store in Laguna Niguel. They had two 1933 Goudey Gehrigs. One was a beautiful raw example, and one was a PSA 5. The raw card was superior on every visual measure.... better centering, crisp/clear image vs. blurry/out of register, better corners, better color, etc. Looking at the PSA5 made me dizzy and the baby blue background was more grey than blue. Every single attribute that makes that card great was superior in the raw example.

Both cards were priced the same, so it was a no-brainer to purchase the raw one. When I looked closer at the raw card, I noticed a tiny and discrete speck of paper loss that was barely noticeable without magnification.

So fast-forward to today... the ugly off-centered PSA 5 would command more money than the far more beautiful raw example, just because someone at PSA deemed that paper loss in one miniscule spot is more of a detractor than the entire card being faded and out of focus.

Who wrote these idiotic rules, and why are they embraced as the norm? I know that the sheep-like mentality is to fully embrace someone else's numbering system. But who in the hell ever determined that it was right in the first place? Not to mention the obscene and nonsensical variance in pricing that follows (due strictly to a randomly assigned number on a flip).

I love this thread, and kudos to the OP for starting it. I agree with him 100%

[Delray Vintage]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Disagree. Eye appeal should be factored into the grade. The current model is broken and senseless. Who decided upon the current parameters, anyway? When many 2s look better than 6s, it indicates there is a problem.

Back in the 90s (when grading was in its infancy), I was at SCP's brick and mortar store in Laguna Niguel. They had two 1933 Goudey Gehrigs. One was a beautiful raw example, and one was a PSA 5. The raw card was superior on every visual measure.... better centering, crisp/clear image vs. blurry/out of register, better corners, better color, etc. Looking at the PSA5 made me dizzy and the baby blue background was more grey than blue. Every single attribute that makes that card great was superior in the raw example.

Both cards were priced the same, so it was a no-brainer to purchase the raw one. When I looked closer at the raw card, I noticed a tiny and discrete speck of paper loss that was barely noticeable without magnification.

So fast-forward to today... the ugly off-centered PSA 5 would command more money than the far more beautiful raw example, just because someone at PSA deemed that paper loss in one miniscule spot is more of a detractor than the entire card being faded and out of focus.

Who wrote these idiotic rules, and why are they embraced as the norm? I know that the sheep-like mentality is to fully embrace someone else's numbering system. But who in the hell ever determined that it was right in the first place? Not to mention the obscene and nonsensical variance in pricing that follows (due strictly to a randomly assigned number on a flip).

I love this thread, and kudos to the OP for starting it. I agree with him 100%

I am happy someone agrees with me. Grading is supposed to mean something in relation to pricing. When the market is saying eye appeal means as much or more than crisp corners grading companies need to rethink the weight they give to corners, minute paper loss and other things they weight over eye appeal. To have a higher grade be less desired makes no sense. The grade is supposed to mean something to the average collector not be some arcane process to evaluate corners under a magnifying glass. Sorry grading is broken when a PSA 2 sells for more than a 5.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Couldn't disagree more. Grading is about the condition of the card, not the price. The open market determines the price. If a 2 sells for more than a 5 it just means the collector values it more. Not that it is higher grade. The parameters can't keep changing through time based on the market. If it did then yesterday's 5 that was based on condition wouldn't be the same a today's 5 that is based on eye appeal. The end user needs to actually look at the card and determine for themselves if they like the appeal better than another card. It's not up the grader to tell me what card looks better, just which one is in better physical condition based on their standard of grading. That way they are all comparable. You have to buy the card, not the holder. So leave it up to me which one I think is better and tell me what flaws the cardboard has.

It's been said before that if a card came out of a pack with poor registration then that doesn't bring the grade down. It's how it left the factory. So it can still be mint and be out of focus. Do I like that 8 better than the lesser condition but clearer registration 5, maybe not. But some registry guy who is into the number might. I'm about the cards, not the number grade.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Couldn't disagree more. Grading is about the condition of the card, not the price. The open market determines the price. If a 2 sells for more than a 5 it just means the collector values it more. Not that it is higher grade. The parameters can't keep changing through time based on the market. If it did then yesterday's 5 that was based on condition wouldn't be the same a today's 5 that is based on eye appeal. The end user needs to actually look at the card and determine for themselves if they like the appeal better than another card. It's not up the grader to tell me what card looks better, just which one is in better physical condition based on their standard of grading. That way they are all comparable. You have to buy the card, not the holder. So leave it up to me which one I think is better and tell me what flaws the cardboard has.

It's been said before that if a card came out of a pack with poor registration then that doesn't bring the grade down. It's how it left the factory. So it can still be mint and be out of focus. Do I like that 8 better than the lesser condition but clearer registration 5, maybe not. But some registry guy who is into the number might. I'm about the cards, not the number grade.

The part highlighted in bold is a nonsensical double-standard....

Grossly off-centered cards also "left the factory" that way. Why penalize off-center, but not out of focus or poorly registered cards? At least when it's off-center you can still clearly see the image. With off-register cards, you can't see anything but fuzzy images.

Again.... who made up these random and idiotic rules? It's not like "The Ten Commandments" written by God, and having stood for centuries. TPG has been around for about 2 1/2 decades, and the time has come to clean it up.

I am actually hoping that one of the new TPG entries blows up the whole thing, and offers up a better grading system which actually makes sense and rewards cards with better aesthetics. They may not capture the current registry fanatics, but they could carve out a very nice niche for true collectors.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The part highlighted in bold is a nonsensical double-standard....

Grossly off-centered cards also "left the factory" that way. Why penalize off-center, but not out of focus or poorly registered cards? At least when it's off-center you can still clearly see the image. With off-register cards, you can't see anything but fuzzy images.

Again.... who made up these random and idiotic rules? It's not like "The Ten Commandments" written by God, and having stood for centuries. TPG has been around for about 2 1/2 decades, and the time has come to clean it up.

I am actually hoping that one of the new TPG entries blows up the whole thing, and offers up a better grading system which actually makes sense and rewards cards with better aesthetics. They may not capture the current registry fanatics, but they could carve out a very nice niche for true collectors.

Again, I can see if the card is off center myself. Then in that case it would sell for less than a similarly graded card that was centered.

With so many cards already graded using those random and idiotic rules, changing the rules now makes all the previously graded cards obsolete and they would all have to be regraded based on the new standards. Why can we just look at the card and decide for ourselves what we are willing to pay for it?

Edited to add: I'm not a graded card guy just for the record, I just like the discussion we are having. And, I am a "true collector", whatever that means.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Again, I can see if the card is off center myself. Then in that case it would sell for less than a similarly graded card that was centered.

With so many cards already graded using those random and idiotic rules, changing the rules now makes all the previously graded cards obsolete and they would all have to be regraded based on the new standards. Why can we just look at the card and decide for ourselves what we are willing to pay for it?

Edited to add: I'm not a graded card guy just for the record, I just like the discussion we are having. And, I am a "true collector", whatever that means.

Yup, it's a good discussion and I respect your opinion....just a healthy disagreement. You will win the argument since history and money are both on your side, so I know that I fight a losing battle...

That said, regarding the part in bold...

1. I think you meant to say "why can't we just look at the card..."

2. My answer is that we can (and do). But doesn't that pretty much render the entire concept of grading to be obsolete and/or useless? I think that most collectors (if we were to start over from scratch) would prefer a grading system that accurately reflects the true condition and appeal of the card. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Casey2296]

I love buying cards with overwhelming eye appeal that are punished by the graders for one reason or another. It gives me a chance to afford a card that I would otherwise be priced out of like a Red or Green Cobb, etc. While the "buy the number" guys are concentrating on the grade I can find some nice deals on the lower graded examples that fit my parameters. Making a run tonight at a particular card graded "2" due to 2 soft corners but has the eye appeal of a "4". We'll see how it works out.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Edited to add: I'm not a graded card guy just for the record, I just like the discussion we are having. And, I am a "true collector", whatever that means.

Sorry... there are all types of collectors, and no right or wrong when it comes to peoples' preferences.

What I meant by "true collector" is someone who collects the card for what it is. Not a number collector that lives/dies by a machine-generated slab. I guess I should've said "traditional" collector instead of "true" collector.... I apologize!

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yup, it's a good discussion and I respect your opinion....just a healthy disagreement. You will win the argument since history and money are both on your side, so I know that I fight a losing battle...

That said, regarding the part in bold...

1. I think you meant to say "why can't we just look at the card..."

2. My answer is that we can (and do). But doesn't that pretty much render the entire concept of grading to be obsolete and/or useless? I think that most collectors (if we were to start over from scratch) would prefer a grading system that accurately reflects the true condition and appeal of the card. Otherwise, what's the point?

1. Correct, I meant can't instead of can.
2. Not going to argue on this point. I think we can both agree that grading is a sh!itshow these days no matter how you look at it. I just didn't agree originally with the idea that grading was meant to make prices standard. Or something like that. I just really think we as collectors set the market based on how we feel a card is graded when we look at it, not based on the number. Although these days the number seems to mean quite a bit to the investors.

Originally Posted by perezfan

Sorry... there are all types of collectors, and no right or wrong when it comes to peoples' preferences.

What I meant by "true collector" is someone who collects the card for what it is. Not a number collector that lives/dies by a machine-generated slab. I guess I should've said "traditional" collector instead of "true" collector.... I apologize!

No worries, I knew what you meant, just wanted say I think I am a "traditional" collector like you meant.

[JollyElm]

One man's cardboard is another man's poison.