FS: 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson PSA 4.5

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am very interested to see how this shakes out. AJ, thank you for posting about this and please keep us updated. Posting this on a public forum (one PSA does not control), could have some impact on PSA's response, especially in light of new ownership.

I agree with Pete that there is new ownership and we should see how they handle this before we all go crazy. While I am very doubtful, the new owners deserve a shot. I also agree with Peter that there is no way PSA could ever fully honor its guaranty in light of all the altered cards in PSA slabs; especially considering that the value of those cards are 2-10x what they were 6 months ago.

Anyway, lets see how it shakes out.

AJ, there are some who have been looking for a higher profile test case to litigate PSA's guaranty. This seems like a decent example. If you choose to get a lawyer and litigate, I am sure there are a number of people who would contribute something to the cost. Just sayin.....

A much better test case IMO would be where the seller refused to refund the buyer, and the buyer promptly made a claim on the guarantee. It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out, and hopefully for the best, but I don't think it's a typical or ideal case.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A much better test case IMO would be where the seller refused to refund the buyer, and the buyer promptly made a claim on the guarantee. It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out, and hopefully for the best, but I don't think it's a typical or ideal case.

Though it's probably not reasonable to assume the buyer would know immediately card in hand that it had been trimmed or altered.

That's why he used the expertise of a third party grader when choosing which card to buy, so that eyes more experienced than his own would render that opinion. A TPG company no less that would vouch for it's estimation with particular guarantees.

Not unreasonable at all to NEVER question it until being made aware of the possibility by yet others of greater hobby experience.
You could have the card for 20 years sitting in your safe and not give another thought to it's authentic grade, then upon taking it out find reason to question the possibility of alteration.
And subsequently need to seek recompense.
No?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Though it's probably not reasonable to assume the buyer would know immediately card in hand that it had been trimmed or altered.

That's why he used the expertise of a third party grader when choosing which card to buy, so that eyes more experienced than his own would render that opinion. A TPG company no less that would vouch for it's estimation with particular guarantees.

Not unreasonable at all to NEVER question it until being made aware of the possibility by yet others of greater hobby experience.
You could have the card for 20 years sitting in your safe and not give another thought to it's authentic grade, then upon taking it out find reason to question the possibility of alteration.
And subsequently need to seek recompense.
No?

You don't know the facts of this case, I do. I wouldn't have said what I said were it not so.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Though it's probably not reasonable to assume the buyer would know immediately card in hand that it had been trimmed or altered.

If by buyer you mean AJ, he was apparently notified with proof just over 30 days after his purchase was made.

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

That's why he used the expertise of a third party grader when choosing which card to buy, so that eyes more experienced than his own would render that opinion. A TPG company no less that would vouch for it's estimation with particular guarantees.

Not unreasonable at all to NEVER question it until being made aware of the possibility by yet others of greater hobby experience.
You could have the card for 20 years sitting in your safe and not give another thought to it's authentic grade, then upon taking it out find reason to question the possibility of alteration.
And subsequently need to seek recompense.
No?

Yes many of us rely, but maybe not blindly, on a TPG assessment however if someone provides evidence which supports a card in question might be altered and should not have graded, addressing it timely is imperative. Aug 2020 was ions ago in this fast moving market. If pressed I feel pretty confident that eBay would have approved of a return at the price paid at which time the seller could have gone to PSA for a buy back. I am even more confident that PSA would have liked for the opportunity to buy back the card in Aug 2020 rather than someone waiting until March 2021 to make an inquiry.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If by buyer you mean AJ, he was apparently notified with proof just over 30 days after his purchase was made.



Yes many of us rely, but maybe not blindly, on a TPG assessment however if someone provides evidence which supports a card in question might be altered and should not have graded, addressing it timely is imperative. Aug 2020 was ions ago in this fast moving market. If pressed I feel pretty confident that eBay would have approved of a return at the price paid at which time the seller could have gone to PSA for a buy back. I am even more confident that PSA would have liked for the opportunity to buy back the card in Aug 2020 rather than someone waiting until March 2021 to make an inquiry.

Ah, I didn't know the time-frame of AJ's card......
Even so, it's an interesting proposition.
If I buy a card, eBay, Auction House, wherever, the card sits in a Third Party Grading Slab of repute, and when I receive it I'M confident it's ok, what is the presumed responsibility for me to get it re-evaluated if contacted by someone else (NOT the TPG company looking to make amends for it's mistake) whose opinion it is that the grade is incorrect...either for grade assessed, evidence of authenticity, or alteration?

As a hobbyist myself, my first thought if I believe the card good is that I'm being contacted by a party upset at having missed the opportunity to buy it themselves, and looking to have me give it up.

For instance, I'm going to post the following.
It's my W514 Jax, and I've posted it before.
It's an SGC 86, sharp as all get out. In fact, I have no idea how it can be so sharp after all those years before I got it and subsequently had it graded. It was raw at the time of purchase nearly 20 years ago.
I inspected it, and while it's a touch 'bat wingy' at one corner I could seen no evidence of recent cutting. But when was it cut? Did a kid/adult back in 1919 actually perform that kind of perfect hand cutting from the strip?
SGC thought the same as I after inspecting the card.

But what if one of you guys decided you didn't like how it looked, and insisted it MUST be non-contemporaneously trimmed, and decided you would reach out to SGC to push your claims.
Am I then obligated to chase down someone else's suspicions?
That doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

Now, I'm SUUUUUPER confident in this card, or I wouldn't post it, but still I run the risk if this is the new standard - no?

Again, I understand if the TPG becomes aware of a likely mistake, in fact one so obvious just by first take there is an blatant issue and it needs immediate return.
But in the other instance, I'm sure relying on both my opinion and that of the TPG should be sufficient for me to not have to 're evaluate' every card I buy?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Ah, I didn't know the time-frame of AJ's card......
Even so, it's an interesting proposition.
If I buy a card, eBay, Auction House, wherever, the card sits in a Third Party Grading Slab of repute, and when I receive it I'M confident it's ok, what is the presumed responsibility for me to get it re-evaluated if contacted by someone else (NOT the TPG company looking to make amends for it's mistake) whose opinion it is that the grade is incorrect...either for grade assessed, evidence of authenticity, or alteration?

As a hobbyist myself, my first thought if I believe the card good is that I'm being contacted by a party upset at having missed the opportunity to buy it themselves, and looking to have me give it up.

For instance, I'm going to post the following.
It's my W514 Jax, and I've posted it before.
It's an SGC 86, sharp as all get out. In fact, I have no idea how it can be so sharp after all those years before I got it and subsequently had it graded. It was raw at the time of purchase nearly 20 years ago.
I inspected it, and while it's a touch 'bat wingy' at one corner I could seen no evidence of recent cutting. But when was it cut? Did a kid/adult back in 1919 actually perform that kind of perfect hand cutting from the strip?
SGC thought the same as I after inspecting the card.

But what if one of you guys decided you didn't like how it looked, and insisted it MUST be non-contemporaneously trimmed, and decided you would reach out to SGC to push your claims.
Am I then obligated to chase down someone else's suspicions?
That doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

Now, I'm SUUUUUPER confident in this card, or I wouldn't post it, but still I run the risk if this is the new standard - no?

Again, I understand if the TPG becomes aware of a likely mistake, in fact one so obvious just by first take there is an blatant issue and it needs immediate return.
But in the other instance, I'm sure relying on both my opinion and that of the TPG should be sufficient for me to not have to 're evaluate' every card I buy?

In the case of AJ, if you read the threads from BO you will see the purpose of providing evidence to the alteration to the 48L was not done so anyone could get the card from him, at least as I have read it. Was to put people on notice--the exact opposite purpose.

In the case of your strip card, I think is assumed and accepted by grading companies that some have been cut down well after their release. As long as they size up it does not matter when or who cut them or recut them.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

In the case of AJ, if you read the threads from BO you will see the purpose of providing evidence to the alteration to the 48L was not done so anyone could get the card from him, at least as I have read it. Was to put people on notice--the exact opposite purpose.

In the case of your strip card, I think is assumed and accepted by grading companies that some have been cut down well after their release. As long as they size up it does not matter when or who cut them or recut them.

Yup, i got the specifics of this instance, I was talking out loud about the generic...
Anyway, obviously not of intellectual interest so I'll drop it.