Vintage Undervalued Roookies

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I would tend to agree with you, but cards like that have seemingly been stuck in the mud for decades. '65 Carlton and Joe Morgan. '57 F. Robby and the '60 Yaz rookie. Just because a player is great doesn't always translate to card values. Stan Musial remains grossly undervalued for the player he was for virtually all of his cards that were produced after the 1940's. It's difficult to understand.

On the flip side, there is no purely baseball reason for Mantle to dwarf everyone else in value; obviously there are many intangibles involved in why some players are relatively underappreciated card-wise. But I don't expect after all this time much will change for Musial, Spahn, Foxx, E Collins, etc.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

On the flip side, there is no purely baseball reason for Mantle to dwarf everyone else in value; obviously there are many intangibles involved in why some players are relatively underappreciated card-wise. But I don't expect after all this time much will change for Musial, Spahn, Foxx, E Collins, etc.

True, but Mantle is virtually a unique situation unto himself, owing to how the hobby evolved in the late 1970's and early 80's. When things went from underground hotel shows to retail and multiple card shops in many towns by 1985 and later, many of the target baby boomer customers had all grown up idolizing Mickey Mantle. That's what I attribute it to, anyway. From a pure baseball perspective, he wasn't as good as Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron, and possibly others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

True, but Mantle is virtually a unique situation unto himself, owing to how the hobby evolved in the late 1970's and early 80's. When things went from underground hotel shows to retail and multiple card shops in many towns by 1985 and later, many of the target baby boomer customers had all grown up idolizing Mickey Mantle. That's what I attribute it to, anyway. From a pure baseball perspective, he wasn't as good as Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron, and possibly others.

Not totally unique. Maris values are utterly disproportionate. Same, honestly, with Koufax (150 wins). Munson. Purely statistically speaking, Jackie.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not totally unique. Maris values are utterly disproportionate. Same, honestly, with Koufax (150 wins). Munson. Purely statistically speaking, Jackie.

I would agree, but in proportion. Maris isn't valued anywhere near Mantle, of course.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Same, honestly, with Koufax (150 wins). Purely statistically speaking, Jackie.

You just shut your Dodger hating mouth.

Seriously though, while the mystique of what might have been (and the unprecedented run of dominance) definitely lift Koufax over what his career numbers would lead you to expect. I think Jackie is underrated as an actual player.

Jackie - all the percentage numbers are among the all time greats at the position OPS+ of 132 if 6th all time among 2b in the 20th century. Since the brevity of his career wasn't even injury, but rather societally created I don't think you can look at counting stats the same way you can even with someone like Koufax.

Make me a list of 2b with a career slash of .311/.409/.474 it's a damn short list! Not a lot of nearly .900 Career OPS guys at 2b.

162 Game average of 111 Runs 178 Hits 32 Doubles 6 Triples 16 Home Runs 86 RBI 23 Steals 87 BB and only 34 K's is pretty stellar.

So yeah the counting numbers might not be there, but he was never mediocre, his career wasn't shortened by injury. The stats he was able to put up in the time he had are pretty astonishing.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

True, but Mantle is virtually a unique situation unto himself, owing to how the hobby evolved in the late 1970's and early 80's. When things went from underground hotel shows to retail and multiple card shops in many towns by 1985 and later, many of the target baby boomer customers had all grown up idolizing Mickey Mantle. That's what I attribute it to, anyway. From a pure baseball perspective, he wasn't as good as Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron, and possibly others.

There are several potential factors that explain the disproportionate value gaps between Mantle, Mays, and Aaron cards, considering their careers essentially began around the same time.

First, there is the Yankee factor. Mantle was a life-long Yankee, and played for the sporting world’s most well-known franchise. People collect the best player on the best team. Second, there is New York City factor. Although Mays partially played his career in NYC, Mantle played his entire career in it. Mantle received more exposure during his playing days.

Third, there is the winning factor. Mays and Aaron only have one title each. Mantle was a seven-time world series champion. Again, more exposure. Fourth, Mantle has the most iconic post-war card, which is arguably the second all-time most iconic card only behind the T-206 Wagner. There is a trickle-down effect to other cards. You see this with Wagner’s other cards as well.

Finally, I’m not trying to start any political debates, but there is the race factor. The 1950s and 1960s was obviously an entirely different era. White kids from this era grew up idolizing and pretending to be Mantle, while African American kids grew up idolizing and pretending to be Mays/Aaron at the plate in their sandlots.

This simply carried over to collecting. There are more white collectors than African American ones (at least based solely on my unscientific observations from attending shows for over 30 years), and these baby boomers are simply collecting their childhood hero more than Mays/Aaron. I think all these factors are at play.

On a side note, has anyone else observed the Mays explosion since January? You simply cannot find a decently priced Mays card anymore. Wow!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

There are several potential factors that explain the disproportionate value gaps between Mantle, Mays, and Aaron cards, considering their careers essentially began around the same time.

Totally. The fact that he played his whole career in NY, was constantly showing his phiz on TV in October of every year, etc. etc. played heavily into WHY he was the idol of so many baby boomers who got into the hobby again in the 1980's.