Hey, pennant guys

[thetahat]

Saw this generic Dodgers pennant on eBay. Not too uncommon. This is the product of a company who has made many pennants, but has yet to be identified. What strikes me about this is the spine and tassels. Not felt and not cloth. Almost feels like canvas. Where have we seen this before? The company that made the 1958 LA/SF opening day pennant, the 1954-58 WS pennants (see ‘55 below), and the 1956, 1958 NFLC pennants. The pennants themselves are cloth. Furthermore, we have this series below that Baseball Rob posted awhile ago, observe the Phillies pennant. These all have the same type of spine. That being said, my guess is that this pic is from 1964-65 simply because of the Milwaukee Braves and Redlegs pennants hanging. 1968 seems a tick too modern. I know they changed the 3 to an 8 on the WS pennant. Do you have more background on this pic, Rob?

Anyway, this is a company with a distinct style. My guess is that it is from/near NYC. Ideas?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Saw this generic Dodgers pennant on eBay. Not too uncommon. This is the product of a company who has made many pennants, but has yet to be identified. What strikes me about this is the spine and tassels. Not felt and not cloth. Almost feels like canvas. Where have we seen this before? The company that made the 1958 LA/SF opening day pennant, the 1954-58 WS pennants (see ‘55 below), and the 1956, 1958 NFLC pennants. The pennants themselves are cloth. Furthermore, we have this series below that Baseball Rob posted awhile ago, observe the Phillies pennant. These all have the same type of spine. That being said, my guess is that this pic is from 1964-65 simply because of the Milwaukee Braves and Redlegs pennants hanging. 1968 seems a tick too modern. I know they changed the 3 to an 8 on the WS pennant. Do you have more background on this pic, Rob?

Anyway, this is a company with a distinct style. My guess is that it is from/near NYC. Ideas?

The 1958 Opening Day pennants I have seen all have a "normal" spine...

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

The 1958 Opening Day pennants I have seen all have a "normal" spine...

No that’s exactly what mean. By “not normal” I simply mean it is noticeably different than felt or cloth. Hard to describe in words.

Mark has the WS pennants, maybe he can better explain.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

No that’s exactly what mean. By “not normal” I simply mean it is noticeably different than felt or cloth. Hard to describe in words.

Mark has the WS pennants, maybe he can better explain.

I'm confused. Those 1958's look like felt to me. My local buddy has the autographed one. I'll have him bring it over.

[thetahat]

Well maybe it’s a different type of felt. But there’s a noticeable difference between it and what Trench used. Also they exclusively used white spines and they turned a uniform brown with age.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Well maybe it’s a different type of felt. But there’s a noticeable difference between it and what Trench used. Also they exclusively used white spines and they turned a uniform brown with age.

Greg, I know what you mean about the strange material, but it's sure hard to describe in words. It's more of a visual/touch thing that differentiates these spines.

It's almost like a hybrid material with equal parts canvas, felt and cardboard. The white color typically would turn to tan or a dark cream color, and was prone to creasing/wrinkling.

Here's the spine to my 1955 WS pennant. Hopefully the photo picks up the composition of the spine material (which somehow stayed pretty white). I have a 1957 WS pennant on which the unusual spine material (and tassels) are much more prominent and darker toned. It's buried, but I'll try to dig it out.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Saw this generic Dodgers pennant on eBay. Not too uncommon. This is the product of a company who has made many pennants, but has yet to be identified. What strikes me about this is the spine and tassels. Not felt and not cloth. Almost feels like canvas. Where have we seen this before? The company that made the 1958 LA/SF opening day pennant, the 1954-58 WS pennants (see ‘55 below), and the 1956, 1958 NFLC pennants. The pennants themselves are cloth. Furthermore, we have this series below that Baseball Rob posted awhile ago, observe the Phillies pennant. These all have the same type of spine. That being said, my guess is that this pic is from 1964-65 simply because of the Milwaukee Braves and Redlegs pennants hanging. 1968 seems a tick too modern. I know they changed the 3 to an 8 on the WS pennant. Do you have more background on this pic, Rob?

Anyway, this is a company with a distinct style. My guess is that it is from/near NYC. Ideas?

Yup. Trench

Trench definitely made the "BKLYN." pennant you first showed. Rick posted a photo from the Brooklyn Eagle of some kids waving it that dates it to ca. 1949. I believe it measures 26" in length; which, by the late 1940s, was Trench's preferred size. There's also a Brooklyn (football) Dodgers pennant featuring the same letter script, with a punter graphic known to be used by Trench during that same era.

The '55 Dodgers v. Yankees WS pennant is, I believe, also by Trench.

So you weren't far off on your New York guess, Greg; except these came from Buffalo rather than NYC.

I can't say I've ever noted any anomalies in the spines on either of these two pennants.

I'm afraid the '58 Dodgers v. Giants "1st Game" pennant's manufacturer remains unknown. I don't believe it's by Trench: it has no tassels. The speculation among Rob and I was that this was made by a local, bay area novelty maker that made a few other Giant-only pennants featuring the same San Francisco artwork.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Yup. Trench

Trench definitely made the "BKLYN." pennant you first showed. Rick posted a photo from the Brooklyn Eagle of some kids waving it that dates it to ca. 1949. I believe it measures 26" in length; which, by the late 1940s, was Trench's preferred size. There's also a Brooklyn (football) Dodgers pennant featuring the same letter script, with a punter graphic known to be used by Trench during that same era.

The '55 Dodgers v. Yankees WS pennant is, I believe, also by Trench.

So you weren't far off on your New York guess, Greg; except these came from Buffalo rather than NYC.

I can't say I've ever noted any anomalies in the spines on either of these two pennants.

I'm afraid the '58 Dodgers v. Giants "1st Game" pennant's manufacturer remains unknown. I don't believe it's by Trench: it has no tassels. The speculation among Rob and I was that this was made by a local, bay area novelty maker that made a few other Giant-only pennants featuring the same San Francisco artwork.

Great insight Kyle. Also Mark’s picture is very good. I still think that the differences are too big to suggest Trench. Perhaps a generic graphic was copied. But the spine is so different, wider, much smaller stitch, and those that have tassels (not all of them do) often are made of the same cloth as the body of the pennant. If it’s Trench then these were made by workers who were banished to the annex and did not share ideas. And I think the artwork is very distinct ... the letters, etc. .. Now I did pull up pics of those pennants which I believe fit this series. One thing they have in common is a connection to NYC teams (including loosely, the relocated baseball clubs). .... I do see that a couple spines are different colored (not white).

[thetahat]

These are the Trench WS pennants ... my question is, would the same company make two radically different designs/styles for the same week-long series?

[thetahat]

Close-up of the Dodgers spine ... it’s a “two-ply” material! This is common for all of these.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Close-up of the Dodgers spine ... it’s a “two-ply” material! This is common for all of these.

You're right.

That said, you've got to organize all your "sub-species" into Google photo albums, because you're confusing the crap out of me!

[perezfan]

Greg is the official net54 "Pennant Savant".

Regarding that 1954 WS Pennant... Anybody want to sell or do a trade for that?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Furthermore, we have this series below that Baseball Rob posted awhile ago, observe the Phillies pennant. These all have the same type of spine. That being said, my guess is that this pic is from 1964-65 simply because of the Milwaukee Braves and Redlegs pennants hanging. 1968 seems a tick too modern. I know they changed the 3 to an 8 on the WS pennant. Do you have more background on this pic, Rob?

Here's the background my buddy gave me. He grew up in Fresno.

'These are photos from a baseball banquet in Fresno circa 1964-65 I believe. They came from Bill Thompson’s estate. Bill broadcast the SFG games between 1965-73 w/ Russ (Hodges) & Lon (Simmons), but before and after was affiliated with the Fresno Giants; before as an announcer and after as general manager. My guess is that, based on the people and background, it was either part of what was called “The Hot Stove League Dinner”, an annual offseason baseball banquet that really took off in the 1970’s (had Aaron, Garagiola and McCovey as guests of honor at it’s zenith), or it could have also been a farewell dinner for Bill between 1964-65 when he left his post as KFCN-TV Sports Director to work for the SF Giants; or even a combination. It’s just a guess, and a best guess at that.'

Not sure that clears anything up. Still can't explain why the Dodgers' 3 was changed to an 8.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Here's the background my buddy gave me. He grew up in Fresno.

'These are photos from a baseball banquet in Fresno circa 1964-65 I believe. They came from Bill Thompson’s estate. Bill broadcast the SFG games between 1965-73 w/ Russ (Hodges) & Lon (Simmons), but before and after was affiliated with the Fresno Giants; before as an announcer and after as general manager. My guess is that, based on the people and background, it was either part of what was called “The Hot Stove League Dinner”, an annual offseason baseball banquet that really took off in the 1970’s (had Aaron, Garagiola and McCovey as guests of honor at it’s zenith), or it could have also been a farewell dinner for Bill between 1964-65 when he left his post as KFCN-TV Sports Director to work for the SF Giants; or even a combination. It’s just a guess, and a best guess at that.'

Not sure that clears anything up. Still can't explain why the Dodgers' 3 was changed to an 8.

Rob that’s great stuff! Thank you. Makes a lot more sense now. In the far right the pennant that looks cut off appears to be the Colt 45s in this picture, which also fits the time period. Also in the pic is a 3/4 size Dodger 1955 pennant which *might* have come from the same company. It was made by the same company that made the Cinderella Boys Giants pennant, that’s for certain. There’s a “coarse” texture to the paint that is very unique.

[thetahat]

I’ll guess that this was the SFG pennant from that series (not in Rob’s pic). This and the black version. By this time they were using cloth/felt spines.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I’ll guess that this was the SFG pennant from that series (not in Rob’s pic). This and the black version. By this time they were using cloth/felt spines.

What the hell are we looking for here, Savant? What is "that series"? Oy, my head hurts.

edit: Oh, maybe you’re referring to the banquet picture?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

What the hell are we looking for here, Savant? What is "that series"? Oy, my head hurts.

edit: Oh, maybe you’re referring to the banquet picture?

Yes that looks very very similar in style to the orange Colt 45s.

[thetahat]

Here’s a recent pickup. There must be a hundred Orioles pennants from 1966-70, and a lot of them have years printed on them after the fact. It’s somewhat unique to them. Anyway I thought it was cool how the dates of the Baltimore home games are listed, even though Game 5 on the 10th was not needed. Don’t know of another WS pennant like this ...