Thoughts on CGC potentially "Restoring" Cards

[swarmee]

It's not against any law to restore something and then mark it restored. Although I don't like the idea, it's exactly on par with SGC offering the ability to cut cards and then grade them with a "sheet cut" designation. The market will adjust accordingly, and cards like that may sell for what a nice looking PSA AUTH sells for, in the PSA 2-4 price range.

People are going to commit fraud, and if they alter cards as a business model and then catch the alterations if they are submitted later to them, they're doing the right thing. If they alter the cards and then cannot tell they're altered and give them grades on the unaltered scoring chart, there will be major issues.

Does SGC still offer to cut your cards for you?

[luciobar1980]

Restoration is dumb, IMO, in most cases. But it's also very detectable on comics, so i don't see why it wouldn't be for cards.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

Restoration is dumb, IMO, in most cases. But it's also very detectable on comics, so i don't see why it wouldn't be for cards.

I know there's a portion of the hobby that's skeptical of the grading companies, and what they've slabbed and let through, throughout the years.

[jchcollins]

Restoration almost caught on with cards in the early 90's, but what did instead was professional grading.

To me, the fear that restored cards being accepted could then lead to said cards being busted from slabs and thereby adding an additional dimension of confusion to the current alteration scandal mess with TPG's is silly. The answer to this all along has been more individual collector responsibility and knowledge, and demands of accountability out of hobby partners like graders. PSA and other TPG's have largely gone unimpacted by the events of 2018 - present with the scandal because at the end of the day, there is not a quorum of hobbyists who give a good godd@amn.

At the end of the day what matters is that you are satisfied with your cards as a hobby / investment. Don't buy examples that might be suspect of fraud or alteration - or even restoration - if you don't like that. Short of TPG's investing a ridiculous amount of time, money, and resources in a move towards becoming something more like forensic examiners than people who rate pieces of cardboard on a 1-10 scale (not ever going to happen...), collectors who care know they are responsible for this anyway.

[rjackson44]

is this grading company going to debut?

[Seven]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Restoration almost caught on with cards in the early 90's, but what did instead was professional grading.

To me, the fear that restored cards being accepted could then lead to said cards being busted from slabs and thereby adding an additional dimension of confusion to the current alteration scandal mess with TPG's is silly. The answer to this all along has been more individual collector responsibility and knowledge, and demands of accountability out of hobby partners like graders. PSA and other TPG's have largely gone unimpacted by the events of 2018 - present with the scandal because at the end of the day, there is not a quorum of hobbyists who give a good godd@amn.

At the end of the day what matters is that you are satisfied with your cards as a hobby / investment. Don't buy examples that might be suspect of fraud or alteration - or even restoration - if you don't like that. Short of TPG's investing a ridiculous amount of time, money, and resources in a move towards becoming something more like forensic examiners than people who rate pieces of cardboard on a 1-10 scale (not ever going to happen...), collectors who care know they are responsible for this anyway.

At the end of the day we need to buy what we like and what we're satisfied with. I have purchased cards that are slabbed AA, mostly because they present nicely and are usually cheaper. We are always going to be responsible for what we collect.

Originally Posted by rjackson44

is this grading company going to debut?

I don't believe there is a definitive date with everything going on, but I believe they're supposed to be grading at least starting this year. The Restoration, who knows if it happens. With them offering a comic restoration service though, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, if they eventually take on restoring cards.

[todeen]

First, I wouldn't do this.

However, Let's not forget that there are all different levels of restoration, even for art. Soaking glue and adhesive off the backs of cards is restoration. No one objects to that when it's done right.

With the money that has flowed into our hobby it's almost ignorance to believe the same people who restore their artwork, classic cars, and jewelry wouldn't take the same opportunity to restore their cards. An investment in the eyes of many needs to be maintained or improved.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Short of TPG's investing a ridiculous amount of time, money, and resources in a move towards becoming something more like forensic examiners than people who rate pieces of cardboard on a 1-10 scale (not ever going to happen...),

Why not? It's not expensive to at least begin, and that's what has been done in stamps for over a century.
Very early experts marked the back of the stamp with their mark, a practice that has been fading for decades and is now pretty much gone. Certificates began sometime before 1930.

A similar service for cards wouldn't be all that difficult.

[swarmee]

Yeah, they could use a glue or ink or paper that fluoresces under black light, as part of their restoration.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by steve B

Why not? It's not expensive to at least begin, and that's what has been done in stamps for over a century.
Very early experts marked the back of the stamp with their mark, a practice that has been fading for decades and is now pretty much gone. Certificates began sometime before 1930.

A similar service for cards wouldn't be all that difficult.

Don't get me wrong; it's do-able, and I would agree from a startup perspective would not be over-the-top difficult out of the gate. The Philatelic Society is what I'm assuming you are referring to with stamps - I think that's great.

I meant that current TPG's have no market incentive to do this, so why would they? Aside from the noise that has been made on Blowout and here and in a few other spots, other collectors and investors largely don't care about the alteration scandal.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Don't get me wrong; it's do-able, and I would agree from a startup perspective would not be over-the-top difficult out of the gate. The Philatelic Society is what I'm assuming you are referring to with stamps - I think that's great.

I meant that current TPG's have no market incentive to do this, so why would they? Aside from the noise that has been made on Blowout and here and in a few other spots, other collectors and investors largely don't care about the alteration scandal.

Yes, APS and PF and others.
My club had a talk by an expertiser, and while most of what he talked about was stuff I knew, there were some things I had never heard of.
Like one of the 1870's-80's papers being detectable because it's ever so slightly flourescent under a blacklight.

There's an outfit that's doing some very advanced work studying stuff like color and paper scientifically.
Someday I hope Something like X-ray diffraction is available affordably enough for hobbyists.

https://www.analyticalphilately.org/index.php

But a blacklight usable for cards is around $10, and decent magnifiers and measuring tools can be had for well under $100 total.
Going with a really good dual range blacklight, magnifier and measuring tool would be possible for under 500.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Don't get me wrong; it's do-able, and I would agree from a startup perspective would not be over-the-top difficult out of the gate. The Philatelic Society is what I'm assuming you are referring to with stamps - I think that's great.

I meant that current TPG's have no market incentive to do this, so why would they? Aside from the noise that has been made on Blowout and here and in a few other spots, other collectors and investors largely don't care about the alteration scandal.

So then why do these people pay such an enormous premium for a card graded "9" vs. one graded "A"?

Why even have a grading scale if nobody cares? What's the point of it all?

[peanuts]

If they see it as a profitable venture – which it almost certainly would be – then they will eventually roll out the service. I know that I have raw cards that I wouldn't mind having touched up for a small fee, just to make my overall display look a bit nicer.

The only way for them to do this right would be to mark the card itself in some way. UV-reactive ink would be the best choice, though a small printmark might be the simplest way (and making it harder to crack, say, a restored Cobb and sell it raw, as there's significant value even without a TPG).