Pennant materials

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Hi Hank...This comment couldn't be further from the truth. There are many, many, many pennants that can only be guessed at in terms of age. When I started my site, there was virtually no pennant reference material available. This was essentially why I created the site. I wanted to document detail as I discovered it. In fact the only existing reference material was Egner's pennant price guide, which was very thin on football pennants (and which identifies this pennant as 1940s just as in FYI).

Since I created the site, Kyle has shed an enormous amount of light on the various producers of pennants which helps us narrow dates down, but in many instances, it's still just an educated guess. Unless a pennant is dated, you can't really identify a "date of issue". I'm certain there are other pennants on my site that need their era adjusted based on the knowledge that has come out in just the last couple of years thanks to Kyle and others here in the pennant forum.

Hi Rob,
To begin with, I want to assure you that my only agenda in starting this thread was to learn more about pennant dating and related info. My original post was quite general, and I only brought up the Packers pennant because that's what touched off my renewed curiosity about pennant dating. I have bought and sold dozens of pennants in my decades as a collector and dealer, and have always thought they were as cool as any category out there. Even the many mysteries surrounding them was intriguing--I love to tell the story of my several stages of knowledge of the best way to get the older, softer, pennants into a plexi holder--perhaps I'll make a post on that subject and see how those on this forum do it! And regarding the Green Bay pennant--let me assure you the only person more thrilled about snagging it than myself is my friend, a huge Packers fan, who got it for Christmas. And if you reread the sentence you're taking exception to, I'm supporting you--He has such an amazing collection, it's hard to believe he wouldn't have a good idea of the dates of issue of just about everything in his collection. I hope you don't mind my posting of the Packers section from your forum, but I assumed it would be OK since it is public.
So, getting back to the pennant in question, where are we? Does the stiffer material strongly suggest a later date, as in 1960s, or were pennants being made of that stiffer, thinner, stuff in the 1940s and 50s, also? The later Ad Flag pennants had thinner paint, it is said, but the paint on this one seems quite substantial, does that tell us anything? It's clear that the graphics don't help, but I would like to know if this is a repro of an earlier version made with a different, more substantial material, or just the preference of an Ad Flag artist for creating an antique scene for a then-modern pennant c. 1960 or so.

[Hankphenom]

Some of my pennants. Coincidentally to the conversation, the green pennant in the first picture is the only Senators pennant--of which I have acquired a pretty good knowledge dealing in mostly Washington stuff for many years--that would fit the category of a possible Ad Flag or other repro. This example is made of a very thick, substantial material and with heavy paint. Whenever I would see this pennant at a dealer's table, more often than not it would be of a much stiffer material with thinner paint, and the argument raged over the years as to whether that version was some kind of repro, although they never looked brand new but with some age, at least. The information about Ad Flag and their later redos of earlier pennants would seem to have solved that mystery, but it needs a different and less pejorative tag than "repro." "Restrike," maybe?

[perezfan]

NICE!

How about a closer look at the D&M Die-cut Sign just below the Nationals Pennant? Would love to see it in larger detail.

As for dating pennants... there as many anomalies and contradictions as there are steadfast rules. After handling a few thousand of them, the reproductions stand out like a sore thumb.

Regarding the Packers Pennant... I have seen that same exact AdFlag game scene graphic utilized for 1960s teams. It looks earlier, but I agree the Packers version is circa late '50s. Apparently, AdFlag kept that template in their "files" for a long time.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by perezfan

NICE! How about a closer look at the D&M Die-cut Sign just below the Nationals Pennant? Would love to see it in larger detail.

This is a repro, made from the only known original by a friend of mine who worked for Xerox using their top equipment. My friend, Jack Pollard of Lynchburg, VA, for whom the term "advanced collector" was intended, had this on the floor of his basement, stuffed between filing cabinets containing his amazing card collection. He let me take it home and have a copy made, after which I reluctantly sent it back. Jack died about 15 years ago and this was auctioned off as part of his collection. It only went for a couple grand, which even back then seemed very low to me. Pinterest has a picture of it, presumable from the auction catalog, but I can't remember who auctioned it, maybe REA.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/363806476131663170/

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

This is a repro, made from the only known original by a friend of mine who worked for Xerox using their top equipment. My friend, Jack Pollard of Lynchburg, VA, for whom the term "advanced collector" was intended, had this on the floor of his basement, stuffed between filing cabinets containing his amazing card collection. He let me take it home and have a copy made, after which I reluctantly sent it back. Jack died about 15 years ago and this was auctioned off as part of his collection. It only went for a couple grand, which even back then seemed very low to me. Pinterest has a picture of it, presumable from the auction catalog, but I can't remember who auctioned it, maybe REA.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/363806476131663170/

Beautiful... if only we had a time machine! Thanks for posting the image and sorry for the derailment.

Back to vintage felt....

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Some of my pennants. Coincidentally to the conversation, the green pennant in the first picture is the only Senators pennant--of which I have acquired a pretty good knowledge dealing in mostly Washington stuff for many years--that would fit the category of a possible Ad Flag or other repro. This example is made of a very thick, substantial material and with heavy paint. Whenever I would see this pennant at a dealer's table, more often than not it would be of a much stiffer material with thinner paint, and the argument raged over the years as to whether that version was some kind of repro, although they never looked brand new but with some age, at least. The information about Ad Flag and their later redos of earlier pennants would seem to have solved that mystery, but it needs a different and less pejorative tag than "repro." "Restrike," maybe?

Hank, cool Washington pennants! Here are my favorites from the Senators ... (I’d have sent this as a DM but don’t see how to attach pics) ... I believe Mark has the incredibly awesome Clark Griffith pennant?

[ooo-ribay]

I do the “tapping” thing, too, but not on concrete or tile. Busted a few rigid holder tips, doing that.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I do the “tapping” thing, too, but not on concrete or tile. Busted a few rigid holder tips, doing that.

Me, too.

[perezfan]

Foxey Griff....

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Foxey Griff....

What a fantastic pennant, just beautiful ..

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Foxey Griff....

Foxey Griff is off the charts! The Philly pennant is gorgeous, too. In my pictures, you can see that I have an Ad Flag Senators version with white paint only, no tassles, etc. Maybe "knockoff" would be a good term for what Ad Flag did with these cheapy versions of more elaborate pennants done by others.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Hank, cool Washington pennants! Here are my favorites from the Senators ... (I’d have sent this as a DM but don’t see how to attach pics) ... I believe Mark has the incredibly awesome Clark Griffith pennant?

You had to do that, didn't you, Greg! Just kidding, those are fantastic for a D.C. guy, as is Mark's. The only thing that would top any of those is the Walter Johnson version of the 1924 pennant, which my friend Kent Feddeman snagged off eBay for $400 about 20 years and auctioned for 15K. To my knowledge, that's the only example known of that one, anyone know who has it?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You had to do that, didn't you, Greg! Just kidding, those are fantastic for a D.C. guy, as is Mark's. The only thing that would top any of those is the Walter Johnson version of the 1924 pennant, which my friend Kent Feddeman snagged off eBay for $400 about 20 years and auctioned for 15K. To my knowledge, that's the only example known of that one, anyone know who has it?

Thanks Hank .. wow, $400? Amazing. I remember when it was auctioned for $15,000. I don’t recall seeing another like that one or like mine. The picture in the auction catalog showed a bunch like mine hanging at a celebration dinner.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Thanks Hank .. wow, $400? Amazing. I remember when it was auctioned for $15,000. I don’t recall seeing another like that one or like mine. The picture in the auction catalog showed a bunch like mine hanging at a celebration dinner.

Yours may be the only one known, as they might have been made only for the 1924 Washington banquet held before the World Series, where a few of them were on the wall. Or they might have been sold at the Series, but if so you would think there would be a few around. That picture of the 1924 banquet with your pennant, by the way, came from the 1925 banquet program, of which I have a copy.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Not that anyone might care, but Hank has brought up this Senators pennant on multiple occasions so I will elaborate a little. This pennant is from very late 50's to 60's. These are other baseball pennants that are from that same series and were produced at the same time. They all have the same characteristics, exact same pennant body material, same piping, etc. The "weight" of the felt is the same. That is what I am referring when I talk about how a pennant "feels".

The second photo shows other that I know are from that same series. The Green Bay Packers World Champions, Buffalo Bills, the Chicago Bears one with the quarterback throwing the ball to end zone, Denver Broncos brown pennant with yellow horse, and others. I believe the Dolphins one to be from that same series as well. I believe the Colts too could be from this same series, but i'm not 100% on this one.

The San Francisco pennant I believe to be earlier. Obviously we have all the this one and other similar ones like the Cleveland Browns, etc. Same maker, close to same time frame, but different series.

Lastly, the Chicago Bears one. This is an earlier style, with different felt. Different piping (often thicker and more supple) and stitching can vary.

When I look closer at the Packers pennant photo on my computer with a larger screen instead of my phone, it does appear to be a stiffer thinner felt. I had originally said 50's, but I could see this one be sold in the early 60's as well based on material used.

Many of these pennants were re-purposed with small added info or dates as they needed to fill a specific game or year. They also used most of the artwork scenes on multiple occasions over the years with multiple fabrics.

With that said, this version was also used earlier than 1960 and most of this style was produced with the earlier very supple felt that fell apart very easily when exposed to the elements. The earlier ones also seemed to "fall apart" a lot easier than the new felt like the ones I showed in the larger group. To me (at least for this maker which Kyle says is AdFlag) the make up of the pennant itself tells me a lot more about the date than the style. I don't get in to the makers like you guys do, I just like the visual attributes and designs of pennants from all sports.

People are free to disagree and say I have no idea what i'm talking about, and some already do. This information comes from buying and selling hundreds of pennants. The pennants I mentioned first in my postings are still some of the ones that I purchased from unsold vendor stock from people that used to sell at both Wrigley and Comiskey as well as County stadium in Milwaukee. Most of these groups are gone, but these are some of the last few from that specific purchase. A quick search of Ebay, I could pull another 10 plus styles in to this same group. Many of these pennants were in the same boxes they were packed in from the old days. Sorry I never took photos of any labeling on them. With that, i'm out.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Some of my pennants. Coincidentally to the conversation, the green pennant in the first picture is the only Senators pennant--of which I have acquired a pretty good knowledge dealing in mostly Washington stuff for many years--that would fit the category of a possible Ad Flag or other repro.

Hank, your green Washington Senators pennant is also by ADFLAG

[Domer05]

I agree with the collective sentiments of this thread: unless there's a date on the pennant, all you can do is make an educated guess as to when it was made. Thankfully, due to the work put-in by people on this thread, and the information we've been able to share with each other through forum's like N54, we can make much stronger guesses today. Egner's book started all of this. He got us out of the Dark Ages. Rob's terrific website built on that info and moved us into the Renaissance Era!

I personally do not put much stock in the type of material used when trying to identify a pennant's manufacturer. In my experience, most of the big producers during the 1940s through 1970 experimented with different substrates. Some of it was thick; some of it was thin. Some of it was plush; some of it was stiff. Although I think these characteristics are occasionally useful in dating a pennant ... it's hard for me to touch a pennant and say, "Yup, this feels like an ADFLAG." But that's just me.

For me, I put much more stock in re-occurring artwork; distinctive letter fonts; and of course, maker's marks. Another really useful indicator: the presence of tassels or not (some makers, like ADFLAG, never used tassels).

Finally, one last comment about pennant artwork not appearing period-appropriate.... In my observations, this was particularly common concerning football pennants. People see a 1960s ADFLAG pennant featuring a football player wearing a helmet, sans face mask ... so they conclude: "Ah ha, must be from the 1940s!" But not so fast.

Why? The artists that drew these scenes hated face masks. That's because single bar helmets, which players from that era may have been wearing, obscure the players' facial features, which the artist hoped to depict. The answer: remove the face masks from the helmet. Go back and look at the 1960s-era football pennants on Rob's site ... many convey the raw emotions of the player being depicted (looking tough, looking confident, looking jubilant, looking defeated, etc.). You wouldn't see any of this if it was covered by a face mask.

So, don't assume these pennants were reproductions. The artists just wanted to make their pennants more interesting, and that vintage look from yesteryear served that purpose.

[thetahat]

Kyle, I agree in the sense that I don’t think you can tell AD FLAG by feel, but I do think it’s pretty easy by sight. The artwork is ... unique.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I agree with the collective sentiments of this thread: unless there's a date on the pennant, all you can do is make an educated guess as to when it was made. Thankfully, due to the work put-in by people on this thread, and the information we've been able to share with each other through forum's like N54, we can make much stronger guesses today. Egner's book started all of this. He got us out of the Dark Ages. Rob's terrific website built on that info and moved us into the Renaissance Era!

I personally do not put much stock in the type of material used when trying to identify a pennant's manufacturer. In my experience, most of the big producers during the 1940s through 1970 experimented with different substrates. Some of it was thick; some of it was thin. Some of it was plush; some of it was stiff. Although I think these characteristics are occasionally useful in dating a pennant ... it's hard for me to touch a pennant and say, "Yup, this feels like an ADFLAG." But that's just me.

For me, I put much more stock in re-occurring artwork; distinctive letter fonts; and of course, maker's marks. Another really useful indicator: the presence of tassels or not (some makers, like ADFLAG, never used tassels).

Finally, one last comment about pennant artwork not appearing period-appropriate.... In my observations, this was particularly common concerning football pennants. People see a 1960s ADFLAG pennant featuring a football player wearing a helmet, sans face mask ... so they conclude: "Ah ha, must be from the 1940s!" But not so fast.

Why? The artists that drew these scenes hated face masks. That's because single bar helmets, which players from that era may have been wearing, obscure the players' facial features, which the artist hoped to depict. The answer: remove the face masks from the helmet. Go back and look at the 1960s-era football pennants on Rob's site ... many convey the raw emotions of the player being depicted (looking tough, looking confident, looking jubilant, looking defeated, etc.). You wouldn't see any of this if it was covered by a face mask.

So, don't assume these pennants were reproductions. The artists just wanted to make their pennants more interesting, and that vintage look from yesteryear served that purpose.

Great information, just the kind, along with other posts here, I was looking for. I'll have to check out Egner's website, it sounds like that's the place for the current state of pennant knowledge.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Hank, your green Washington Senators pennant is also by ADFLAG

That's what I figured. Based on the material and other factors, I believe it to be a 50s issue. There's another version, with thinner material and paint, they probably made in the 60s or so, as apparently they would do. If so, it wouldn't be accurate to call it a repro, more of a restrike by the same company using a more modern process.

[Fballguy]

Sorry Hank...I wasn't taking exception to your comment, I just wanted to address that one specifically as anyone who says they're an expert on "date of issue" for undated pennants is most likely full of you know what....and there's plenty of people who fall into that category in this hobby (though none in this forum ).

The dates I used came from hours of searching completed auction results, internet research, my own football knowledge and Egner's book as a gut check. In many cases, it's a best guess and certainly open to change.

As for this Packers pennant, you'll never find one for sale that's attributed to the 1960s unless it's dated. The earliest dated version of this pennant is 1960. This leads me to believe the pennant is actually from the 1950s and was repurposed for the 1960 Championship game. Keep me honest Kyle, but I believe a pennant maker would be much more likely to take an existing pennant and slap a date on it to commemorate a championship game than they would be to make the pennant for a championship game and then remove the commemoration to sell a regular version. The fact that it's so much easier to find an undated version than it is a dated one, leads me to believe they were being produced for years before the game. Just my opinion...

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Even the many mysteries surrounding them was intriguing--I love to tell the story of my several stages of knowledge of the best way to get the older, softer, pennants into a plexi holder--perhaps I'll make a post on that subject and see how those on this forum do it!

So, getting back to the pennant in question, where are we? Does the stiffer material strongly suggest a later date, as in 1960s, or were pennants being made of that stiffer, thinner, stuff in the 1940s and 50s, also? The later Ad Flag pennants had thinner paint, it is said, but the paint on this one seems quite substantial, does that tell us anything? It's clear that the graphics don't help, but I would like to know if this is a repro of an earlier version made with a different, more substantial material, or just the preference of an Ad Flag artist for creating an antique scene for a then-modern pennant c. 1960 or so.

To you first point, Hank, I "bulge" the holder as much as possible and push a dowel toward the tip and try to pull it in rather than push it in. My moth eaten Cinderella Boys was quite the challenge. I generally prefer the soft sleeves, but that's just me.

To your second point, it is my opinion that stiffer, synthetic "felt" always points to mid to late 60's and later. That said, I have know idea if your Packers pennant is a repro or just something Ad Flag decided to make at the time. To muddy the waters even further, I'm not sure I have any (Giants) Ad Flags that are not soft felt.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

To you first point, Hank, I "bulge" the holder as much as possible and push a dowel toward the tip and try to pull it in rather than push it in. My moth eaten Cinderella Boys was quite the challenge. I generally prefer the soft sleeves, but that's just me.

That was my first stage, for years, before learning to tap them in a little at a time on a concrete or other hard floor, which worked well for all but the softest felts, which could be a challenge. I did that for years before someone at a National took me to the final stage, which was placing the pennant on a "carrier" plexi pennant holder, putting them both as far into the "receptacle" pennant holder as possible (about 2/3 of the way), then pulling the carrier holder out and using the aforementioned tapping method to get the rest firmly seated all the way. Works like a champ every time. I love the hard plexi, both for appearance and protection.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

To your second point, it is my opinion that stiffer, synthetic "felt" always points to mid to late 60's and later. That said, I have know idea if your Packers pennant is a repro or just something Ad Flag decided to make at the time. To muddy the waters even further, I'm not sure I have any (Giants) Ad Flags that are not soft felt.

I'm thinking there must be an alternative to this theory, as in maybe they weren't made by Ad Flag at all. There are just too many pictured on the Football Felt forum, even just in the Packers section, including my example, that look to be made of the stiffer material but also look to be considerably older, even accounting for throwback graphics, than anything I've seen from the mid to late 60s. Several posters have suggested 50s for mine and these others, and that sounds--and more pertinently--looks about right to me.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

To you first point, Hank, I "bulge" the holder as much as possible and push a dowel toward the tip and try to pull it in rather than push it in. My moth eaten Cinderella Boys was quite the challenge. I generally prefer the soft sleeves, but that's just me.

To your second point, it is my opinion that stiffer, synthetic "felt" always points to mid to late 60's and later. That said, I have know idea if your Packers pennant is a repro or just something Ad Flag decided to make at the time. To muddy the waters even further, I'm not sure I have any (Giants) Ad Flags that are not soft felt.

Paragraph #1: I have luck putting the pennant about half way in and with the holder vertical, tapping the tip of the rigid holder on the floor (carpeted preferably as tips of the holders do break) to get the thinner pennants to slide in without wrinkling. Sometimes it takes several, two steps forward one step back interations to get it to go in cleanly but it always does. Also seen it done by sandwiching the thinner pennant between two stiff, thin modern pennants, then pulling the modern pennants out quickly. Though I haven't done that one myself.

Paragraph #2: 0% chance it's a repro unless it was a repro made in the 1950s.

[thetahat]

I agree, not a repro. I’ll include another thing about AdFlag. Quality control plummeted in the 1960s. Their newer pennants are notorious for being poorly cut and stitched ... crooked edges and sometimes the spine would be noticing off the edge. This Packers pennant doesn’t seem to have those issues.