already too many bids

[1880nonsports]

on this frankenmonster.....?!?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324420288166

[khkco4bls]

Personally don't think it's a franken monster but I think it's missing the inside label also was torn out.

[1880nonsports]

paper label is actually covering the already burnt into top of
lid ID as can be seen on the left side. If one were to peel back the paper - you would find the actual name to be something else. Doesn't even look like a label. The paper covering likely from an old publication or something else - looks nothing like any label ever affixed to the outside of a cigar box I've ever seen. I see like 5/6 red flags including where the label meets the trim. So it was called base ball cigars? Please. Am I the only one???

no guarantees whether written or implied. According to my wife I'm rarely right.

[Michael B]

I will have to agree with Henry. That is the cover of some pulp magazine. Look at the cloth pull on the top. The 'label' is ripped so that it fits around the pull. The tobacco stamp was issued 1875-1878 and they were required to be cancelled. The 100 signifies 100 cigars. After 1865 the IRS required all cigars to be packed in boxes of 25, 50, 100, 250 or 500. This stamp was part of the last group of pre-Golden Age stamps. The 100, 250 and 500 were all 16 inches long. The 25, 50 and 100 were all designed to wrap around all four sides of the box. This stamp does wrap around all four sides and the end tabs are complete. The stamping on the bottom of the box does say 100 and it appears to be the same name as the side label. Nice old generic cigar box worth probably much less than $100 to a collector. A full unused cigar stamp of that issue is probably worth more than the box.

[aquarius31]

This same image is from a Harper’s 1874 woodcut depicting the Red Stockings and Athletics during their England tour. I think there’s also an identical woodcut in the Illustrated London News. It was not uncommon for identical images to be used in newspaper publications, cigar labels and other formats. This particular image is a much smaller format and appears to be a color lithograph not a woodcut. I’m going to be in the minority here but I think it’s original to the cigar box. If this came from a publication, it would have other indicators and I have never seen a ‘REGISTERED IN THE U.S. PATENT OFFICE’ reference on any 19th century newspaper publication.


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[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by aquarius31

This same image is from a Harper’s 1874 woodcut depicting the Red Stockings and Athletics during their England tour. I think there’s also an identical woodcut in the Illustrated London News. It was not uncommon for identical images to be used in newspaper publications, cigar labels and other formats. This particular image is a much smaller format and appears to be a color lithograph not a woodcut. I’m going to be in the minority here but I think it’s original to the cigar box. If this came from a publication, it would have other indicators and I have never seen a ‘REGISTERED IN THE U.S. PATENT OFFICE’ reference on any 19th century newspaper publication.

I thought the same but Michael makes great points, too. 19th century is totally out of my realm. Interesting discussion, nonetheless.

[aquarius31]

They're both original items so I guess the question becomes whether or not the cigar label is original to the cigar box or whether it was affixed to the box at a later point. Ideally, there would be another box to compare it to but I don't know if there are similar ones out there. The other guys are the experts here on cigar boxes so I'm out of my league on that aspect but I do feel strongly that it's not a cut out from a publication.

I did subsequently come across this link which provides more color commentary on the 1874 England tour and has a nearly identical cigar label titled 'First Nine.'

https://ourgame.mlblogs.com/a-pictor...5-e1277b4f94d3

[ooo-ribay]

So many great blogs out there that most of us never see.

[YazFenway08]

I was FINALLY, after many months, going to be able to contribute some insight to one of these awesome threads....and George beat me to the punch
I love everything related to the 1874 tour...I think that box isn’t likely “Franken-d” and I think it is perhaps irrationally, exuberantly priced

[1880nonsports]

I give up..... Box and stamping is real. Label is not nor is "baseball" the brand of cigars. I'd be willing to bet twice the final price and give you four to one that lifting up the corner of that paper whatever it is would reveal the truth. Win or lose that would be more fun than whatever I've been up to lately. Not an idle proposition - I really would do so.

[aquarius31]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

I give up..... Box and stamping is real. Label is not nor is "baseball" the brand of cigars. I'd be willing to bet twice the final price and give you four to one that lifting up the corner of that paper whatever it is would reveal the truth. Win or lose that would be more fun than whatever I've been up to lately. Not an idle proposition - I really would do so.

As I previously mentioned, you guys are the experts on these boxes. What I’m saying is that the ‘label’ is not from a publication. If you pulled it off, I believe it would be a blank back. It could be a small format print or still a cigar label that was intended for some other distribution. We’ll likely have no idea as it’s in poor condition and was likely placed on that box a long time ago.


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[1880nonsports]

lifting up the paper would allow one to see the back of the paper - BUT ADDITIONALLY - there is a spot where the paper is torn - in that spot one can see parts of a bulbous object (like the top of a "scroll") under the paper that is burnt into the top box lid - lifting the paper off would expose the actual brand name of the cigars. Also, I have never seen a box with such a label on the outside of the box. But then again I've only examined in person or print thousands and thousands of boxes :-) Offering these comments only as opinion - not fact. There were always anomalies in the manufacture and distribution of tobacco products - just not this time :-)

In any event - here's a great sport related cigar box from my collection - happy to post and share it - quite a famous pedestrian race (Astley) is featured.....

[aquarius31]

This has been a healthy conversation. Yes, I clearly see where there is some image that is engrained into the wood. I was referencing the actual baseball cigar label (or whatever it is) that is affixed to it. My point is that I believe that there’s nothing on the back of that label and it was never part of any publication. I’ve seen as many publications as you’ve seen boxes

Perhaps it was a promotional cigar label that may have been a form of advertising for ‘First Nine’ and other brands. Case in point is this identical image. This was not uncommon as there are a few 19th century promotional prints for much larger full lithographs (ex. John A. Andrews Cigars with 1888 Boston club).


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[1880nonsports]

I get what you're saying. Just hard to accept it is a label of any kind. It doesn't have the proper elements for EITHER a rag publication front or cigar label hence frankenmonster. My opinion is I don't think the label (sic) is in any way related to cigars - I don't even think it's a label - and the idea of the manufacturer adorning the annotated box top with a basically generic and unattributed paper base ball scene is frankly ridiculous as this isn't the how and where such a label if it were to exist would be applied.
I'm not an expert in anything. I have not been in contact with the eminent Tony Hyman (masterclass cigar historian) as the issue not that important to me in the scheme of things - ran across the listing and it raised a few red flags for me so thought I'd open it up for discussion even though my own mind was made up. People will make up their own minds - just wanted to call attention to it in the appropriate section and perhaps save someone some grief.

edited to add - I have looked at the listing for the last time :-) One thing I hadn't mentioned previously is the orientation of the "label" - it faces the wrong way. Also - paper labels on the top of the box? I'm now forced to take out some reference books.....

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

lifting up the paper would allow one to see the back of the paper - BUT ADDITIONALLY - there is a spot where the paper is torn - in that spot one can see parts of a bulbous object (like the top of a "scroll") under the paper that is burnt into the top box lid - lifting the paper off would expose the actual brand name of the cigars. Also, I have never seen a box with such a label on the outside of the box. But then again I've only examined in person or print thousands and thousands of boxes :-) Offering these comments only as opinion - not fact. There were always anomalies in the manufacture and distribution of tobacco products - just not this time :-)

In any event - here's a great sport related cigar box from my collection - happy to post and share it - quite a famous pedestrian race (Astor) is featured.....

Over the "A" in Ball? As I said, this is totally out of my realm but is an interesting mystery (or fake).

[todeen]

One of the better informational threads I've read in a while.

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[Michael B]

I mentioned a few things about this box before, yet there is one item that everyone has missed. The label is oriented portrait when it should be landscape. When you open a cigar box you open it on the long side with the label facing you so that you could read it and the cigars laying horizontally in front of you. You would not have to turn the box to see the graphics. No cigar maker is that stupid. As is clearly shown the cloth cover pull is on the long side of the box, therefore it would open as such:

cigar box 1.jpg

If they intended it to open on the short end the cover pull would be on that end and the label as shown would be correct and the cigars would be vertical in front of you. It would look like this:

cigar box 2.jpg

That is not a cigar label, no way, no how. It was probably put on there many years ago as you can see a bright green portion of the design on the lower edge below the reclining player where this 'cover' was chipped. As I pointed out before a cigar manufacturer would take great pride in the presentation of his box. That is how he sold his product. There is no way on God's green earth he would rip the label so that it would fit around the cloth cover pull. He would have either printed a smaller label or attached the pull under the lip of the box so that it would protrude out the front like a tongue.

One person suggested that the inside label was removed. I believe that is incorrect. There is white paper on the inside of the cover. It is stained. If there was a label removed you would see the wood of the box. There was a T.F. McMain of Westfield, MA (west of Springfield) who on July 16, 1873 applied for a patent for a tobacco stripping and smoothing machine. They used to grow tobacco out there and may still do so. My aunt and uncle lived in Westfield in the 1960's. We would visit when I was little. There was a gully behind their house. We would follow it down to what I thought was a river and there were tobacco fields on the other side.

[aquarius31]

Thanks Michael...this is very informative. And nice story btw.


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[1880nonsports]

and I believe I mentioned the orientation as well :-) SO MANY flags..........

Collateral damage - I believe we garnered 60+ watchers on the listing!

[aquarius31]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

and I believe I mentioned the orientation as well :-) SO MANY flags..........

Collateral damage - I believe we garnered 60+ watchers on the listing!

FWIW I don’t think this was intentionally done in a way to deceive buyers. As pointed out, that baseball image was likely placed on that cigar box a long time ago. Neither the box or the image are fake but when combined, it can become the frankenmonster that you reference. There are several scrapbook and folk art examples where people would cut out images and put it on different media. I have a collage with Baltimore players for example that were cut out from N173 cards...shame but a unique item.


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[chalupacollects]

Ok may have solved the mystery or deepened it. The name Harris & Son appears bottom right of label though it is chopped so took a stab at Harris and...

The woodcut was definitely done by Harris & Son a Philadelphia printer who did trade cards, cans and cigar box labels, circulars, calendars etc.. during this time period. This link for more info on him:

http://digital.librarycompany.org/is...%3A79266/print

Then tracing the picture back through Getty Images (lots of cool baseball stuff there...) brought me to the "Innings" cigar brand, which brought me to this:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...els-1910169352

Though not exactly the same box layout it is the same image and same trim work on the box which was branded "Shortstop" cigars. So not having a Worthpoint subscription could not tell what it sold for...

Haven't been able to find out much about Shortstop brand however...

[1880nonsports]

From a listing I have running. Not base ball but what an early cigar box with labels looks like in terms of stamping - presentation - orientation. This is a busy one :-)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/193821448471