2021 HOF Ballot

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I was referring to the overall "baseball" (maybe the "royal" baseball?) - players, owners, sportswriters, and even us fans all deserve some of the blame.

We all know that at that time, the players and owners had a really bad relationship - we're talking the era that started with collusion and ended with the strike.

And 1994 was already too late...fans at Fenway Park were chanting "ster-oids" every time Canseco came to the plate as far back as '88...so I'm thinking maybe '85 or '86 when folks in the game "knew"?

But anyway, my point was really that it's too bad that it's come to this...discussions of HR shifts, back-nee, and the like is just....not as fun as a HOF discussions SHOULD be, ya know?

The problem is that everything had to be negotiated and there was such a poor relationship between owners and players, as you stated, that getting agreement on steroids was pretty much impossible until the majority of players realized the problem. Baseball's drug policy agreed to in the 70s only covered illegal drugs. The NFL didn't even start testing until 1987 and steroids. Do anything before that was never happening.

The next agreement after that was 1990 and at that point Congress hadn't acted on steroids, so they weren't illegal under Baseball's drug policy. Getting the players to accept an expansion of drug policy while dealing with collusion just wasn't going to happen.

In 1994-95, the next contract, owners knew steroids were now covered under drug policy and illegal so they asked for testing but the players refused. Without testing it was going to take a player getting caught and arrested, maybe convicted for MLB to suspend a player.

I agree, the HoF discussions based on the on field performance are much more fun. How much should modern analytics count vs. more old school methods. Modern analysis says Yadi Molina isn't a HOFer, but some feel he is 1st ballot because his defense isn't captured by advanced metrics. Guys with shorter careers with high peaks vs. guys with longevity but low peaks, etc.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by rats60

I agree, the HoF discussions based on the on field performance are much more fun. How much should modern analytics count vs. more old school methods. Modern analysis says Yadi Molina isn't a HOFer, but some feel he is 1st ballot because his defense isn't captured by advanced metrics. Guys with shorter careers with high peaks vs. guys with longevity but low peaks, etc.

Those conversations got plenty heated without the whole steroids thing, for sure!

The interesting thing to me is that 95% of the time, analytics and “traditional” stats paint a similar picture. A list of the top 100 players by WAR and an internet vote of the top 100 players would be more similar than different.

It’s the borderline cases where things get interesting...and it’s like everything else...if people use solid logic and are open minded, we can have great debates. If not, it’s like every other conversation on the internet.

Molina doesn’t scream “HOF” to me...several other catchers ahead of him on my list. But there may be reasons that stats don’t record - that doesn’t tend to be the case, but I for one am willing to be convinced.

[PowderedH2O]

The strangest thing is this: We talk about these big home run surges and how steroids made the totals go up so much... yet, if you compare 2019 to any of the "steroid era" years, they make the steroid era guys look like 98 pound weaklings. 58 guys hit 30 homers in 2019. 130 guys hit over 20 homers in 2019. Compare those numbers to 30-35 years ago... In 1988 FIVE guys hit 30 home runs. Is juicing going on now? Or is it just the fact that so many guys are throwing 98 mph and so many hitters are working out 2 hours a day?
Is it possible that some of the surges of the late 1990's are just surges due to these same factors and we are attributing steroids to too much of it?

BTW, I think once Selig got in the Hall, then that should just throw out the steroid issue once and for all. Put Palmeiro in. Despite being a cheater and a liar, he still has more legitimacy than Selig.

[Frank A]

MAN_EEEEE MAN_EEEEE MAN_EEEEE. He's one of my favorite players. Hope he gets in. Quite a character.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

The strangest thing is this: We talk about these big home run surges and how steroids made the totals go up so much... yet, if you compare 2019 to any of the "steroid era" years, they make the steroid era guys look like 98 pound weaklings. 58 guys hit 30 homers in 2019. 130 guys hit over 20 homers in 2019. Compare those numbers to 30-35 years ago... In 1988 FIVE guys hit 30 home runs. Is juicing going on now? Or is it just the fact that so many guys are throwing 98 mph and so many hitters are working out 2 hours a day?
Is it possible that some of the surges of the late 1990's are just surges due to these same factors and we are attributing steroids to too much of it?

BTW, I think once Selig got in the Hall, then that should just throw out the steroid issue once and for all. Put Palmeiro in. Despite being a cheater and a liar, he still has more legitimacy than Selig.

I think it's different when all ships rise. Clearly the dynamics of the game have changed and whether it's a juiced ball, nutrition, or other changes, it's clearly MORE of an even playing field. Having a few hit monstrous numbers with the rest of the pack far behind is more concerning.

[Mike D.]

Also, don’t disagree that we’re in an offensive era, but comparing to 1988 isn’t exactly wise. Maybe try 1998.

1988 was VERY early in the steroid era, and an offensive lull after the rabbit-ball in 1987.