2021 HOF Ballot

[Mike D.]

I’m interested to see what happens with relievers in the coming years. Wagner is in the ballot now. Joe Nathan comes on in a couple years. I feel they’re both deserving, but do they get the votes? WAR and other measures are tough with relievers, and raw save totals don’t tell the whole story.

[FrankWakefield]

Cy Young AVERAGED 37 games started over 22 seasons. And then he pitched relief a few games each year. And those weren't 162 game seasons. No pitcher today will get that many starts. The pitchers won't throw that often, and the management won't allow it. Golly, a player's agent, his wife, his Mama, lots of folks will try to stop that much pitching in a season.

I'm not a fan of PEDs. But I'm not in favor of punishing the guys who fooled with that before MLB banned certain substances. For the guys who persisted in that knowing the consequences of getting caught, I'm thinking they get suspended by MLB. And good with letting the Hall prohibit enshrinement.

I think the BBWA voters are generally an ill informed lot, when compared to writers of the 30s through 60s.

I'm a lifelong fan of the Cardinals. I'd like to see Rolen get in, but I think he was right on what I considered a somewhat wide dividing line separating those who should be in, and everyone else. I think way to many have gone in the last 30 years or so.

Of those listed back on page one as returning or new candidates, I think Helton and Bonds should be in the Hall. And Rolen would be an acceptable addition. When you get past those guys it seems they are putting someone in just to have an induction... I think of a Hall of Famer as being the likes of Wagner, Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Young, Mathewson, Hornsby, Sisler, DiMaggio, Musial, Traynor, Johnson, Gibson, Koufax, Combs, Mantle, Alexander, Maddux, Ryan, Niekro, Grove, Kaat, Frisch, Clemente, O Smith, Seaver, Foxx, Cochrane... there are others, and some will take exception to some I've listed. We aren't talking good players, nor the best when they played. In my mind, and to butcher the language used by the court in the decision about Lajoie's league jumping 120 years ago... consider the night sky on a clear night, and all of the stars overhead in the firmament, then pick out those brightest, most vivid stars; those are the stars that should be in the Hall. And I find it sad that we already have several of what I consider dim stars.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Kaat

I remember seeing the back of his baseball card when I was a kid, and thinking he played for a very long time. I only saw the very end of his career. You could start up a rival hall down the street with the players that are not in the HOF. Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Don Mattingly, Kirk Gibson, Roger Maris, and on and on.

[Mike D.]

The career value of players being elected is actually going UP, and the number of players elected who played in each decade going down.

For every Ruth and Cobb, there are a lot of veteran committee picks that are just not worthy.

Think about it....in the last 30 years, how many truly undeserving players have been elected? Babies stands out like a sore thumb because there are so few others.

A few borderline guys for sure (Rice, Morris) but most would consider them at least borderline.

Here’s a list of HOFers by year https://www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fam...ctions-by-year

[packs]

Just off the top of my head over the last decade the ones that stand out to me are:

Jack Morris
Lee Smith
Harold Baines
Trevor Hoffman
Bobby Cox
Whitey Herzog

I don't believe any of these inductees were HOFers. Hoffman's WAR is half of Rivera's, which goes to show how much less the closer he was. Smith is even lower than him. Never understood the criteria for managers. Cox and Herzog won exactly one world series. So have a lot of people.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by packs

Just off the top of my head over the last decade the ones that stand out to me are:

Jack Morris
Lee Smith
Harold Baines
Trevor Hoffman
Bobby Cox
Whitey Herzog

I don't believe any of these inductees were HOFers. Hoffman's WAR is half of Rivera's, which goes to show how much less the closer he was. Smith is even lower than him. Never understood the criteria for managers. Cox and Herzog won exactly one world series. So have a lot of people.

I was talking players...managers, owners, GM’s, and umpires...your guess is as good as mine!

The “modern closer” is such a new thing that we’re still figuring it out. Eck has a high WAR due to time as a starter. Wilhelm was unique in his era. Gossage, Fingers, and Sutter were an earlier era than the modern closer era. Rivera is clearly the gold standard of this era, but who else from the modern era belongs? Probably not a lot of guys, but probably not zero.

Hoffman and Smith both got in on raw save total numbers...which we know isn’t the best approach. I think Nathan and Wagner are best candidates, but could see it being hard to reach consensus.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by packs

Just off the top of my head over the last decade the ones that stand out to me are:

Jack Morris
Lee Smith
Harold Baines
Trevor Hoffman
Bobby Cox
Whitey Herzog

I don't believe any of these inductees were HOFers. Hoffman's WAR is half of Rivera's, which goes to show how much less the closer he was. Smith is even lower than him. Never understood the criteria for managers. Cox and Herzog won exactly one world series. So have a lot of people.

I think too much emphasis is put on WAR. It's a useful statistic, but not all-encompassing and troubling when applied to relievers. Rivera was the better pitcher without a doubt. But if relievers have a spot in the Hall, it's silly to say Hoffman isn't a HOFer.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

I think too much emphasis is put on WAR.

Good God y’all. What is it good for?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Think about it....in the last 30 years, how many truly undeserving players have been elected? Babies stands out like a sore thumb because there are so few others.

I assume you meant Baines, but babies do stand out because they are quite often so cute.

Brian

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I assume you meant Baines, but babies do stand out because they are quite often so cute.

Brian

Ha ha...yes, as someone who has been to the HOF with young children, I feel strongly that babies don’t belong!