2021 HOF Ballot

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I don't ever remember Tony being lumped into this group before.

Brian

Yes, I struggle with Gwynn for sure. Nothing about his performance or physique screams PEDs to me.

[mr2686]

Tony Gwynn using PED's? C'mon, that's just plain silly. PED's don't make you magically stronger or better. They allow you to work out more and recover faster from those workouts. Tony wasn't a workout kinda guy, as you can tell by his physique for many years. Tony's gift was eye/hand coordination and videotape study of his swing.

[Gnep31]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Tony Gwynn using PED's? C'mon, that's just plain silly. PED's don't make you magically stronger or better. They allow you to work out more and recover faster from those workouts. Tony wasn't a workout kinda guy, as you can tell by his physique for many years. Tony's gift was eye/hand coordination and videotape study of his swing.

Regardless of the science, PED's do allow for massive muscle growth in a very short amount of time. My roommate put on 15 lbs of muscle in one cycle while playing football in college his freshman yr. I have seen countless examples of similar muscle growth and increased on field performance from my time playing and coaching.

If you think it was 'ok' for our idols to cheat by using PED's then you have never seen HS or college kids die or have serious health issues because of PED use. Most had no chance of getting drafted, but they did go from average players to local or regional All Stars.

Allowing them into the Hall justifies/condones their actions and they should not be in.

Regarding Schilling - I believe he should be in. I support his not taking a knee to the left....pun intended

[Mike D.]

I’m interested to see what happens with relievers in the coming years. Wagner is in the ballot now. Joe Nathan comes on in a couple years. I feel they’re both deserving, but do they get the votes? WAR and other measures are tough with relievers, and raw save totals don’t tell the whole story.

[FrankWakefield]

Cy Young AVERAGED 37 games started over 22 seasons. And then he pitched relief a few games each year. And those weren't 162 game seasons. No pitcher today will get that many starts. The pitchers won't throw that often, and the management won't allow it. Golly, a player's agent, his wife, his Mama, lots of folks will try to stop that much pitching in a season.

I'm not a fan of PEDs. But I'm not in favor of punishing the guys who fooled with that before MLB banned certain substances. For the guys who persisted in that knowing the consequences of getting caught, I'm thinking they get suspended by MLB. And good with letting the Hall prohibit enshrinement.

I think the BBWA voters are generally an ill informed lot, when compared to writers of the 30s through 60s.

I'm a lifelong fan of the Cardinals. I'd like to see Rolen get in, but I think he was right on what I considered a somewhat wide dividing line separating those who should be in, and everyone else. I think way to many have gone in the last 30 years or so.

Of those listed back on page one as returning or new candidates, I think Helton and Bonds should be in the Hall. And Rolen would be an acceptable addition. When you get past those guys it seems they are putting someone in just to have an induction... I think of a Hall of Famer as being the likes of Wagner, Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Young, Mathewson, Hornsby, Sisler, DiMaggio, Musial, Traynor, Johnson, Gibson, Koufax, Combs, Mantle, Alexander, Maddux, Ryan, Niekro, Grove, Kaat, Frisch, Clemente, O Smith, Seaver, Foxx, Cochrane... there are others, and some will take exception to some I've listed. We aren't talking good players, nor the best when they played. In my mind, and to butcher the language used by the court in the decision about Lajoie's league jumping 120 years ago... consider the night sky on a clear night, and all of the stars overhead in the firmament, then pick out those brightest, most vivid stars; those are the stars that should be in the Hall. And I find it sad that we already have several of what I consider dim stars.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Kaat

I remember seeing the back of his baseball card when I was a kid, and thinking he played for a very long time. I only saw the very end of his career. You could start up a rival hall down the street with the players that are not in the HOF. Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Don Mattingly, Kirk Gibson, Roger Maris, and on and on.

[Mike D.]

The career value of players being elected is actually going UP, and the number of players elected who played in each decade going down.

For every Ruth and Cobb, there are a lot of veteran committee picks that are just not worthy.

Think about it....in the last 30 years, how many truly undeserving players have been elected? Babies stands out like a sore thumb because there are so few others.

A few borderline guys for sure (Rice, Morris) but most would consider them at least borderline.

Here’s a list of HOFers by year https://www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fam...ctions-by-year

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by Gnep31

Regardless of the science, PED's do allow for massive muscle growth in a very short amount of time. My roommate put on 15 lbs of muscle in one cycle while playing football in college his freshman yr. I have seen countless examples of similar muscle growth and increased on field performance from my time playing and coaching.

If you think it was 'ok' for our idols to cheat by using PED's then you have never seen HS or college kids die or have serious health issues because of PED use. Most had no chance of getting drafted, but they did go from average players to local or regional All Stars.

Allowing them into the Hall justifies/condones their actions and they should not be in.

Regarding Schilling - I believe he should be in. I support his not taking a knee to the left....pun intended

So you're saying we should just not allow anyone from that era into the Hall? Honestly, the argument around Gwynn is ridiculous and a giant reach. He never immediately put on muscle; If anything, it was fat. No, I cannot guarantee he didn't take them. But we're now going to operate under ridiculous assumptions because there's a chance he might have? Do we kick out Ripken? What about Ricky Henderson? Heck Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, shall I keep going???

There are obvious cheaters, those that are highly-suspicious, those that didn't get caught, and those that actually performed but happened play in the same era. You can't make this the Cooperstown Witch Trials.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

So you're saying we should just not allow anyone from that era into the Hall? Honestly, the argument around Gwynn is ridiculous and a giant reach. He never immediately put on muscle; If anything, it was fat. No, I cannot guarantee he didn't take them. But we're now going to operate under ridiculous assumptions because there's a chance he might have? Do we kick out Ripken? What about Ricky Henderson? Heck Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, shall I keep going???

There are obvious cheaters, those that are highly-suspicious, those that didn't get caught, and those that actually performed but happened play in the same era. You can't make this the Cooperstown Witch Trials.

I think Canseco pretty much confirmed that Rickey Henderson was using.

[Gnep31]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

So you're saying we should just not allow anyone from that era into the Hall? Honestly, the argument around Gwynn is ridiculous and a giant reach. He never immediately put on muscle; If anything, it was fat. No, I cannot guarantee he didn't take them. But we're now going to operate under ridiculous assumptions because there's a chance he might have? Do we kick out Ripken? What about Ricky Henderson? Heck Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, shall I keep going???

There are obvious cheaters, those that are highly-suspicious, those that didn't get caught, and those that actually performed but happened play in the same era. You can't make this the Cooperstown Witch Trials.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Not a single one should be in the Hall.

Once you reward them you legitimize their actions. Young athletes then can justify doing it themselves.

I've always believed two wrongs don't make it right. That goes the same for 2, 5, 10 or a 100 wrongs.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Yes, I struggle with Gwynn for sure. Nothing about his performance or physique screams PEDs to me.

He went from a guy hitting under .320 three consecutive seasons with no power from age 30-32 to winning four straight batting titles and challenging .400 while ALSO increasing power. He went from 4 homers in 134 games at age 31 to 16 in 127 seven years later at age 38.

He absolutely fits the profile of a PED guy - significant performance improvement with added power at the really late stages of his career instead of a decline.

[nat]

The context changed. League average slugging percentage was .368 in 1992, .398 in 1993, and .415 in 1994. Rising tides lift all boats, and it lifted Gwynn's.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by nat

The context changed. League average slugging percentage was .368 in 1992, .398 in 1993, and .415 in 1994. Rising tides lift all boats, and it lifted Gwynn's.

If that is true them the rising tide lifted Barry Bonds also and no PEDS were involved. Tony Gwynns numbers are just as silly and Barry Bonds numbers.

[Throttlesteer]

Originally Posted by Tabe

He went from a guy hitting under .320 three consecutive seasons with no power from age 30-32 to winning four straight batting titles and challenging .400 while ALSO increasing power. He went from 4 homers in 134 games at age 31 to 16 in 127 seven years later at age 38.

He absolutely fits the profile of a PED guy - significant performance improvement with added power at the really late stages of his career instead of a decline.

That's very shaky deductive reasoning and the performance benefits really don't add up. PEDs don't help you get the bat on the ball; The do help put the ball over the wall. Gwynn and Ted Williams relationship blossomed in the mid-90's, when the two discussed the art of hitting. Ted's biggest criticism of Tony was his lack of driving the inside pitch for power. Gwynn attributes his additional power (if you consider mid-double digits impressive) to the various ideas Williams provided.

Gwynn had antithesis of the typical PED physique. He was a very large man with lots of belly fat. The body does naturally have to build some muscle to effectively carry around more weight. But, I think it's a MASSIVE stretch to assume Gwynn was on PEDs. There's plenty of interviews of him speaking on the matter and taking ownership of knowing it was going on, but not saying anything. But I would bet a hearty sum he was clean.

Adding a pic of his 1997 Donruss card. Very different appearance from a Bonds or McGwire. The problem with this era is, we'll call any great performances into question because it was out there. What's next, Cal Ripken? Jesus?