Negro Leagues Recognized As Major

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

That argument is easily defeated by pointing out that the players in the major leagues who would have otherwise lost their jobs to superior Negro League players are still counted among major leaguers. It really isn't a position that can be defended.

If you consider the population percentages, there were many more non-black players and therefore much more competition for spots in the Major Leagues. That alone suggests the average player in the ML was better than the average player in the NL.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

If you consider the population percentages, there were many more non-black players and therefore much more competition for spots in the Major Leagues. That alone suggests the average player in the ML was better than the average player in the NL.

More than anything else, up until Jackie Robinson, the only real qualification you needed to have to play major league baseball was you had to be white. Talent was never first. And even if you want to go along with your line of thinking, there are a million guys who played a cup of coffee in the major leagues that would fall into your AAA and AA talent pool.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

More than anything else, up until Jackie Robinson, the only real qualification you needed to have to play major league baseball was you had to be white. Talent was never first. And even if you want to go along with your line of thinking, there are a million guys who played a cup of coffee in the major leagues that would fall into your AAA and AA talent pool.

Of course talent was first. Look at how extensive the farm systems were. Rookie League, Single A, Double A, Triple A. Some ML teams having more than one minor league team at the same level. Competition to get to the ML was pretty fierce, and there were many thousands of white players competing for those spots.

[packs]

If talent was first why would you have to be white?

And what are you holding so dear, anyway? Victory Faust was in the right place at the right time. Eddie Gaedel was short. But there is nothing to be said about their inclusion over someone like Bruce Petway.

[pgconboy]

I didn't really expect so much opposition to acknowledging a group of athletes that competed at the highest level available to them while racism prevented them from furthering their careers and reaching their dreams.

Yet here we are.

As an NFL fan this sort of stuff has been grouped into the history of the sport as various leagues were born, went extinct, or merged, etc.

In 1961 Charley Hennigan had one of the most statistically dominating seasons for a WR ever. But we all know the competition in the very first years of the AFL wasn't the greatest and a rational human being can take that into account.

[packs]

It really is strange to me. This board is full of people who collect Negro League memorabilia and have nothing but good things to say about Jackie Robinson or Jackie Robinson Day but for some reason there is all this animosity toward recognition like this. This is a good thing. Why don't you want it to be?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

If talent was first why would you have to be white?

And what are you holding so dear, anyway? Victory Faust was in the right place at the right time. Eddie Gaedel was short. But there is nothing to be said about their inclusion over someone like Bruce Petway.

Charles Victory Faust and Eddie Gaedel were stunts, much like Minnie Minoso playing a few games at age 51, and again at 55.

My concern is the watering down of statistics. If you're Satchell Paige you're a ML caliber player, without doubt. But the stats you accumulate pitching against Triple A level competition are not Major League caliber stats.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Charles Victory Faust and Eddie Gaedel were stunts, much like Minnie Minoso playing a few games at age 51, and again at 55.

My concern is the watering down of statistics. If you're Satchell Paige you're a ML caliber player, without doubt. But the stats you accumulate pitching against Triple A level competition are not Major League caliber stats.

Explain how they're watered down when they don't threaten any all time records or even advance Paige's reputation. His reputation is what it is without knowing any of his stats. How does he become watered down?

Again, if you extend your argument from before, the major league records are already watered down by virtue of excluding the best players from playing at all times. Pre-Jackie, everyone's stats are watered down. You cannot say that everything is equal and we are in the same place today if Oscar Charleston and players like him played major league baseball.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by packs

Explain how they're watered down when they don't threaten any all time records or even advance Paige's reputation. His reputation is what it is without knowing any of his stats. How does he become watered down?

Records WILL look different. For example the record for single season batting average, long held by the unquestionably great Hugh Duffy who clearly faced some of the toughest pitching ever, may soon go to Josh Gibson, who many esteemed collectors presume faced mainly AAA level chumps and hobos.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

In the 1930's there were many minor leaguers who, by first-hand accounts from Major Leaguers I knew, should rightly have been called up to the show. The issue was of course the lack of room on the rosters of the parent clubs. Therefore, due to space constrictions, many white players were also denied entry into the Major Leagues. Should we examine their records and proclaim those that meet a predetermined set of criteria to be Major Leaguers as well? According to some points being presented, we'd almost have to. Fair is fair.