Negro Leagues Recognized As Major

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

There were also eras in the American and National Leagues (like during WWII) where the caliber of player was significantly below "Major League" level. Unless you are arguing to remove some the 1800's leagues currently considered Major Leagues, and remove Hal Newhouser from the HOF (both his MVP awards and his 2 best seasons were against dimished WWII competition) then you aren't being consistent here.

You make valid points. As someone who is on the opposite side of this argument, I agree with nearly all of what you're saying here.

I would gladly see Hal Newhouser's HOF plaque relinquished, as well as removing some of the 19th century leagues (if it proves sensible after more continued study) if this latest decision was obliterated.

We all know how long it took Newhouser to be inducted. Frankly, it should never have happened. But then, from what you say, the superstars of the Negro Leagues were playing mostly against AAA caliber players. Should the same rules not apply to them? Who, then, was deserving of enshrinement and who wasn't? Imagine trying to apply logic and meagerly collected stats in an attempt to accurately award merit. Cobb, Ruth, Joe D., Gehrig and whoever else were not playing AAA players. In fact, guys like Ted Williams and Joe D. weren't really padding their stats playing against the diminished WWII players, either. It's all just a huge can of worms proving that everything should have been left as was.

The only thing that we can't do that much about is the diminished talent pool of the WWII-era MLB. It has to stand for the sake of continuity.

(Not that any of these things would ever happen, outside of perhaps the eventual exclusion of the 19th century leagues, but I'm doubtful of that as well.)

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

You make valid points. As someone who is on the opposite side of this argument, I agree with nearly all of what you're saying here.

We all know how long it took Newhouser to be inducted. Frankly, it should never have happened.

I would gladly see Hal's HOF plaque relinquished, as well as removing some of the 19th century leagues (if it proves sensible after more continued study) if this latest decision was obliterated.

The only thing that we can't do that much about is the diminished talent pool of the WWII-era MLB. It has to stand for the sake of continuity.

(Not that any of these things would ever happen, outside of perhaps the eventual exclusion of the 19th century leagues, but I'm doubtful of that as well.)

Fair enough. I can appreciate the perspective and consistency.

I'd argue though, that we need to take it further. After black players, despite being a tiny fraction of the overall players early on, they won the NL ROY in 1947, and every year in the 5 years from 1949-1953.

If we take the best players in baseball who played most of their career after WWII, there are at least as many elite black players as white players. Most top 10 lists include 5 players from after WWII: Musial and Williams are white, and Mays, Aaron and Bonds are black. Some lists add Mantle, which would make it even. As you go further down the list you have Frank Robinson, Joe Morgan, Ken Griffey Jr, Rickey Henderson, Bob Gibson, Roberto Clemente, Pedro Martinez, Roy Campanella etc.

If you don't believe that the Negro Leagues should be included, there's an argument that all of MLB before integration shouldn't either be. Since it is clear that at roughly 50% of the high of the greatest players likely were barred from playing.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I'd argue though, that we need to take it further. After black players, despite being a tiny fraction of the overall players early on, they won the NL ROY in 1947, and every year in the 5 years from 1949-1953.

Forgive me, but this only proves that the MLB clubs picked the freshest, best cream off the top of the Negro League milk bottle. That's neither fresh news nor relevant to the conversation, and purely coincidental that the award happened to be won by black players.

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

If you don't believe that the Negro Leagues should be included, there's an argument that all of MLB before integration shouldn't either be. Since it is clear that at roughly 50% of the high of the greatest players likely were barred from playing.

Sadly, that number can only ever be a guess. There will never be definitive proof of this; it can only be speculated. Also, does this not fly in the face of what you already wrote about the majority of Negro Leaguers only being of AAA caliber? Even with our better understanding and appreciation of overlooked Negro League stars who were finally inducted after so long, statistically, we're nowhere near 50%. Even after years of scrupulous study of (hopefully) rediscovered box scores, will Cooperstown be opening the floodgates to that many players to even come close to that figure? Highly doubtful.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

Forgive me, but this only proves that the MLB clubs picked the freshest, best cream off the top of the Negro League milk bottle. That's neither fresh news nor relevant to the conversation, and purely coincidental that the award happened to be won by black players.



Sadly, that number can only ever be a guess. There will never be definitive proof of this; it can only be speculated. Also, does this not fly in the face of what you already wrote about the majority of Negro Leaguers only being of AAA caliber? Even with our better understanding and appreciation of overlooked Negro League stars who were finally inducted after so long, statistically, we're nowhere near 50%. Even after years of scrupulous study of (hopefully) rediscovered box scores, will Cooperstown be opening the floodgates to that many players to even come close to that figure? Highly doubtful.

Since Integration, we have 70 years where black players have been roughly half of the all-time greats. I can't say definitively that before that era the players would have been equally good, but it's reasonable to speculate. The elite talent has been sustained for 70 years since, and includes players that crossed over leagues (Jackie, Campanella, Aaron, Mays etc all played in the Negro Leagues.)

When you talk about picking the "cream of the crop" that's likely at least somewhat true. But in winning the ROY, these players were finishing on top of all the white players who were rookies (and subsequently the many MVP's won by Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, Campanella etc which means they were literally viewed as the best.)

Regarding my two comments, they are consistent. Research has shown that the elite of the Negro Leagues were on par with the elite in the Majors, but that the teams were overall thinner in talent.

Even if the number of stars missing from pre-integration was 30%-40% and not fully 50%, you are looking at the leagues missing large groups of the best players.

In my mind, if you don't count the Negro Leagues as a Major League because it didn't quite live up to the AL and NL (top to bottom), it's hard to compare stats from pre-integration with post-integration.

All that said, I know not everyone will agree (though I think most will disagree with less nuance than you have) and I appreciate the dialogue around this.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Since Integration, we have 70 years where black players have been roughly half of the all-time greats. I can't say definitively that before that era the players would have been equally good, but it's reasonable to speculate. The elite talent has been sustained for 70 years since, and includes players that crossed over leagues (Jackie, Campanella, Aaron, Mays etc all played in the Negro Leagues.)

I think it's also pertinent to mention the huge upswing in Latin American talent that represents your post-integration demographic. It gives this discussion more points to consider. While there were certainly black Latinos playing in the Negro Leagues, it was statistically far from what's transpired in the integrated era. The great players of the last 30+ years with (at least some) African ancestry have more often than not been Latino.

And while there are a handful of black Latino HOFers from the Negro Leagues, there was never a Latino superstar who made it into pre-integration MLB.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

I think it's also pertinent to mention the huge upswing in Latin American talent that represents your post-integration demographic. It gives this discussion more points to consider. While there were certainly black Latinos playing in the Negro Leagues, it was statistically far from what's transpired in the integrated era. The great players of the last 30+ years with (at least some) African ancestry have more often than not been Latino.

And while there are a handful of black Latino HOFers from the Negro Leagues, there was never a Latino superstar who made it into pre-integration MLB.

That's a point I hadn't considered, but I'm not sure I agree for a couple of reasons.

1) All the players I mentioned were black except for Clemente, and I don't believe any were Latino. I didn't even mention Pujols, Arod etc.

2) There were many great players who because they couldn't play in the MLB, chose to play in Cuba, Puerto Rico and Mexico. Players like Alejandro Oms, Pedro (Perucho) Cepeda etc. Had those players had the chance to play in the MLB, with the increased salaries and opportunities, many if not all would have taken that opportunity. (Some players were explicit about not playing in the US because of the color barrier)

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

And while there are a handful of black Latino HOFers from the Negro Leagues, there was never a Latino superstar who made it into pre-integration MLB.

Ted Williams says hello.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Ted Williams says hello.

Touche! You got me there, Chris.

(Although Ted's roots were definitely covered more than once and way back when, it still was not something most people were privy to. I think this would still be news to the majority of the population. The case of Teddy completely slipped my mind, as I was thinking of those who actually came from Latin American countries when I wrote what I did. It's a shame he wished to hide an entire half of his genes and to an extent, his family.)

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Then the NHL had better add WHA stats to the career totals of guys who played in both leagues. That would mean Mr. Hockey is again the all-time goal scoring leader I believe.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by jakebeckleyoldeagleeye

Then the NHL had better add WHA stats to the career totals of guys who played in both leagues. That would mean Mr. Hockey is again the all-time goal scoring leader I believe.

He is; WHA ROCKS!

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

Forgive me, but this only proves that the MLB clubs picked the freshest, best cream off the top of the Negro League milk bottle. That's neither fresh news nor relevant to the conversation, and purely coincidental that the award happened to be won by black players.




Sadly, that number can only ever be a guess. There will never be definitive proof of this; it can only be speculated. Also, does this not fly in the face of what you already wrote about the majority of Negro Leaguers only being of AAA caliber? Even with our better understanding and appreciation of overlooked Negro League stars who were finally inducted after so long, statistically, we're nowhere near 50%. Even after years of scrupulous study of (hopefully) rediscovered box scores, will Cooperstown be opening the floodgates to that many players to even come close to that figure? Highly doubtful.

In my estimation, there are at least 10 who deserve HOF consideration. Not saying that they should all be elected, but they should be looked at. I think that 5 would be no-brainers if they were white -- Lundy, Donaldson, Marcelle, Beckwith and Brewer. There are several more who should be looked at, including several who played before the cut-off date of 1920. I kind of get 1948, but 1920 is ridiculous IMO.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

But then, from what you say, the superstars of the Negro Leagues were playing mostly against AAA caliber players. Should the same rules not apply to them? Who, then, was deserving of enshrinement and who wasn't?

There are always big fish and small fish in every league. Even today, due to budgets, there are always multiple replacement level players on every team. If we look at MLB superstars, I'm sure many of them will tell you they consider the small fish of MLB to be no different than a AAA replacement. The argument that stats are padded in the Negro Leagues is absurd when MLB's brightest stars are able to rip apart opposition. Barry Bonds and Mike Trout did and are doing absolutely phenomenal things, yet they weren't/aren't lucky enough to only face only other superstars like Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz so that their stats might be more Hall worthy.

Some current Hall level players have to humble themselves to play against players like Homer Bailey who carried a 6.00+ ERA for three straight seasons. I'm sure they hate this thinking that it taints their true hall of fame aspirations.

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[insidethewrapper]

So who is now the first black player to play in the majors ? Edited: I forgot about : Moses Fleetwood "Fleet" Walker (October 7, 1856 – May 11, 1924) was an American professional baseball catcher who is credited with being the first black man to play in Major League Baseball (MLB). May 1, 1884.
...

[sbfinley]

It blows my mind that no one can take this as what it is: a token gesture to try to give a little bit of right back to something that was wrong with the sport for more than 75 years. No one is taking away any record held by anyone. God willing if someone ever chases .400 again it will be classic images of Ted Williams across every screen and every channel. Will they mention Gibson in 43? Probably, but stats and records are religious canon in the sport. No one is going to be forgotten or buried. It’s a gesture meant to elevate the accomplishments of one group of players to the same level as another group that they were not allowed to join because bigotry. Nothing more. They’re numbers on paper and computer screens. Some just became more meaningful in the eyes of a organized league, the rest mean just the same as they ever did.