Possibly trimmed cards - thoughts?

[Marchillo]

i didn't think factory sets were a thing until the 80's - could be wrong.

[G1911]

There were no factory sets in 1971, but some dealers in the 70’s sold complete sets (Fritsch, Galasso, etc.). Presumably he means he got one of these.

Topps cards in 2020 don’t even all measure the same size, open a pack and look carefully at the cards in a stack and you can see the difference. Plenty of legit over and undersize 1971’s. Impossible to issue any judgement without pics, but size isn’t the be all and end all of trimming.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by G1911

There were no factory sets in 1971, but some dealers in the 70’s sold complete sets (Fritsch, Galasso, etc.). Presumably he means he got one of these.

Topps cards in 2020 don’t even all measure the same size, open a pack and look carefully at the cards in a stack and you can see the difference. Plenty of legit over and undersize 1971’s. Impossible to issue any judgement without pics, but size isn’t the be all and end all of trimming.

my point is factory set implies direct from the factory in a sealed set - the sets you are talking about are hand collated - just wanted to make sure the OP was aware of that. And yes I agree cards are all over the place in terms of size - but I would be concerned if i received 4/4 shorter cards from the same person on ebay. But you are right it could be factory cuts.

[ASF123]

Thanks for the tips - I actually was just reading about how they didn't have factory sets in 1971. The seller's exact words were "My 71 and 72 cards were a Christmas present back in 72 and 73 as complete sets from the manufacturer." Not sure what to make of that, as memories can obviously be imperfect from that long ago. Could be referring to a vending box.

I've examined the cards some more, and I can't find any noticeable differences in feel or appearance (with or without magnification) between the vertical edges and the horizontal, which are presumably not trimmed as the cards are the standard height.

I'm attaching a few photos of the Clemente with another '72, to the extent that they may be helpful.

Thanks again, everyone.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

my point is factory set implies direct from the factory in a sealed set - the sets you are talking about are hand collated - just wanted to make sure the OP was aware of that. And yes I agree cards are all over the place in terms of size - but I would be concerned if i received 4/4 shorter cards from the same person on ebay. But you are right it could be factory cuts.

Which is why the first seven words very explicitly and unequivocally state “there were no factory sets in 1971”, before filling in with what is probably being referenced by the seller.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by G1911

Which is why the first seven words very explicitly and unequivocally state “there were no factory sets in 1971”, before filling in with what is probably being referenced by the seller.

A complete set bought in 71-72 would almost certainly have come from a seller like Fritsch and assembled from vending. Cards from vending boxes are often a bit undersized.

[ASF123]

Thank you all for this very helpful and informative discussion. Based on everything I've learned, I've gotten pretty comfortable that the cards are legit, and so I canceled the return request. If that's a mistake, it's not an expensive one, and oh well - I've got some nice-looking cards in my collection. The Bench looks like it might be better than one that went for almost 50% more from Morris yesterday.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by steve B

A complete set bought in 71-72 would almost certainly have come from a seller like Fritsch and assembled from vending. Cards from vending boxes are often a bit undersized.

Very true, cards out of vending boxes from the mid 60s- mid 70s are indeed slightly short l/r...I have seen a fair number over the years. Several times in large lots with cards from the 60s/early 70s I have purchased, I ended up receiving 75-100 copies of the same card and all of them are short l/r....obviously no one invested a bunch of time to trim down a bunch of $1 common cards, they were factory cut this way.

I have always been curious as to how the cutting process differed from cutting cards for packs versus cutting cards for vending?

[cornhusker]

Possibly, vending cards were purposely cut a hair smaller to limit their getting hung up in the card vending machines.

[JollyElm]

It's sort of a balancing act between what you paid for the cards and what the chances are that something is wrong here. First off, many here will tell you that the cards they bought in the 60's and 70's definitely showed occasional variance in sizing, so it is definitely not out of the question that those cards were born that way. But you have to decide whether or not a full 1/16 of an inch is sketchy or not. That is a significant difference. You've already stated that you have no reason to either believe the seller or not believe the seller, so you have to ask yourself a few pertinent questions:

1. Do the edges under magnification look as they should? Is there a way to take pics of your 10X magnification and post them here for some of the guys to look at?

2. How do the prices paid stack up? Did you get the cards on the cheap, or can you get the same cards/conditions for close to or at the same prices elsewhere? If it's the latter, then you may be saving yourself a lot of heartache by just returning them now and putting it all behind you. If they were low priced, but there's a possibility of them being deemed 'wrong' in the future, you have to decide whether the amount paid makes keeping them a non-issue.

3. Do you plan on getting the cards graded? If you shelled out a lot of money for them and they eventually come back as ungradeable due to sizing, you are going to scream like a banshee!!! I know what I'm talking about. In Bobby's last group sub, I had 4 cards returned unsuitable (N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT), three 1971's (including a Nolan Ryan!) and a 1961 Babe's 60th Homer. All were measured out beforehand and examined closely while laying atop a modern card, and they were the perfect size, yet I still got screwed...with no explanation from PSA, of course.

[JollyElm]

Do you have similar pics of the other side of the card? If it was a trim job, who's to say which side got sliced.

On a logic note, I'm not an expert, but when a card is trimmed using a paper cutter, X-Acto knife or whatever, there is a lot of force exerted downward on the card, so the very edge would sorta curve down a microscopic amount...if you know what I mean. A card coming out of the factory almost 50 years ago would have had plenty of time for that edge to re-elevate and match the rest of the card. So, if the edge sort of minutely curves downward, that is a reason for concern.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Do you have similar pics of the other side of the card? If it was a trim job, who's to say which side got sliced.

On a logic note, I'm not an expert, but when a card is trimmed using a paper cutter, X-Acto knife or whatever, there is a lot of force exerted downward on the card, so the very edge would sorta curve down a microscopic amount...if you know what I mean. A card coming out of the factory almost 50 years ago would have had plenty of time for that edge to re-elevate and match the rest of the card. So, if the edge sort of minutely curves downward, that is a reason for concern.

The card is a little off-center to the right, so I figured the left edge would be the trimmed edge rather than making it even more off-center. But maybe that's what they want me to think! Here's the other edge, for reference.

I do maybe see a tiny downward curve, but again, I don't have any experience in this sort of thing and it could just be the power of suggestion. And all the edges of the card look pretty much the same.

[JollyElm]

I've sold only a single card on ebay in the last 15 years, but that's it, as I'm a trader at heart.

Perhaps the most important point you made was how all of the edges seemingly match each other. Someone overthinking it would say, "Well maybe the card was a little large to begin with, so he cut all four sides," but that may be a leap too far. If the cards don't jump out at you as being trimmed, look fine next to their counterparts, and you got them at a great price, I think I know whether or not you're going to keep them.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Do you have similar pics of the other side of the card? If it was a trim job, who's to say which side got sliced.

On a logic note, I'm not an expert, but when a card is trimmed using a paper cutter, X-Acto knife or whatever, there is a lot of force exerted downward on the card, so the very edge would sorta curve down a microscopic amount...if you know what I mean. A card coming out of the factory almost 50 years ago would have had plenty of time for that edge to re-elevate and match the rest of the card. So, if the edge sort of minutely curves downward, that is a reason for concern.

It's actually opposite of that. Most people cut with the Exacto knife starting off the card and continuing through it. The knife in a factory paper cutter presses through with a bit of sideways motion, and leaves an edge exactly like you describe. Just a slight rounding on top. That will vary depending on how sharp the blade was, but it's almost always there.
I have cards from 1910 that still have that edge quality, despite being in P-F condition.

[mortimer brewster]

When were factory sets produced? I've seen collectors comment on seeing/receiving Factory sets ordered out of Sears/JC Penney catalogs around 1974-1975. I took a quick look thru their catalog offerings and did not find any sets for sale.

https://christmas.musetechnical.com

[ASF123]

Thanks guys!

John - I've been following your progress over on the 52T thread. Very cool that you're so close.

Darren - do you also sell on eBay? For some reason I think I might have seen your name on a receipt or something.

Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. Do the edges under magnification look as they should?

I don't have enough experience to know, unfortunately. They look smoother than a few other 71s and 72s I looked at under magnification, but the other cards were in lesser grades overall. I don't notice any difference between the L/R edges and the T/B edges of the cards, so that would seem to weigh against trimming.

1a. Is there a way to take pics of your 10X magnification and post them here for some of the guys to look at? -- I don't think so.

2. How do the prices paid stack up?

Pretty well, I'd say - they are among the best (and possibly the best?) raw examples of those particular cards I've seen on eBay (granted, only in the last month), and I paid an average of about a PSA 4 price for them.

3. Do you plan on getting the cards graded?

Almost certainly not. I think about as much of PSA as you seem to, and these are for my collection, which I don't want to lock away in slabs. It's more that as someone who is just learning about the hobby in 2020 after being gone for a long time, I want to make sure I don't get suckered. Also would not like the cards to be worthless if I do decide to sell them at some point, of course.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by mortimer brewster

When were factory sets produced? I've seen collectors comment on seeing/receiving Factory sets ordered out of Sears/JC Penney catalogs around 1974-1975. I took a quick look thru their catalog offerings and did not find any sets for sale.

https://christmas.musetechnical.com

1974 J C Penneys. Seems like the expirement failed, or had a delayed reaction by about a decade.