Negro Leagues Recognized As Major

[Fred]

Here's a great place to start:

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php

Bryant Gumbel had a really cool segment on this recently. The guy that put this together did a lot of research.

[riggs336]

Possible major shakeup of stats. Here's a paragraph from MLB.com:

Less clear at this stage, pending the discussions between MLB and Elias, is how rate statistics such as batting average or slugging percentage will be classified. For instance, Gibson (.365), Jud Wilson (.359), Charleston (.350) and Turkey Stearnes (.348) all had at least 3,000 career plate appearances and batting averages that would rank in the top 10 all-time, according to the Seamheads database. Their inclusion on that particular list would push the legendary likes of Ted Williams (.344) and Babe Ruth (.342) out of the top 10.

[steve B]

That will be a mess statswise.
My understanding has been that some of the competition was Major league, but some wasn't. I don't know what stats are counted and what aren't.

Are all the stats even known?

It's good to see the league get that recognition though.

[Fred]

There are a lot of missing stats. Not sure how anyone could quantify what is available. Should stats against lesser rated teams be considered as minor league stats and not considered? This is going to be a mess.

[tschock]

Regarding stat comparisons. We can't even come to agreement on the 'statistical correctness' for comparison of players among various eras within the same league. So I have no doubt they will be able to reconcile this to everyone's satisfaction when they do this between 2 different leagues.

Should the Negro Leagues be considered a Major League? Most definitely. But comparing stats is a fool's errand.

[ramram]

I have several scorebooks that have games between Negro League teams and town teams, which were very competitive. Do we now need to include the town teams in the Major League record? I agree that many Negro Leaguers were capable of playing in the Majors but the vast majority were at the Minor League level at that time. I'm not sure how it should be handled but it sure muddies the water IMO.

Rob M

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by steve B

That will be a mess statswise.
My understanding has been that some of the competition was Major league, but some wasn't. I don't know what stats are counted and what aren't.

Are all the stats even known?

It's good to see the league get that recognition though.

Do you make the same claims about 19th century players? If not why not? All their stats aren’t complete.

[Seven]

I think BBREF should atleast have filters to toggle whether or not we can see the NBL stats. I mean zero disrespect to any of the NBL players, as I can only imagine the hardships they went through, nor am I questioning their talent, but having Vargas leapfrog so many players is a tad ridiculous especially considering how much shorter the single season was.

Are we counting Japanese stats next? Is Oh going to be considered the Home Run King over Bonds?

[packs]

I'm sure if you thought about it you will see there are no similarities between the Japanese League and the Negro League. And I think if you delved further into the reasoning behind the inclusion you will find further differences between the two.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm sure if you thought about it you will see there are no similarities between the Japanese League and the Negro League. And I think if you delved further into the reasoning behind the inclusion you will find further differences between the two.

I admit that comment was a bit pedantic, but It's just to bring up a point. As someone that has read and researched an awful lot about the Negro Leagues I'm glad they're finally getting their recognition, some extremely talented men played in that league that would have done well in baseball. They deserve to be recognized. We don't get Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays or Hank Aaron if guys like Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston didn't set the table.

But the entire face lift the leaderboards has gotten is ridiculous. I'm sorry if this is an unpopular opinion. Artie Wilson is labelled as the 6th highest single season batting average in a season that he had 95 At Bats. Josh Gibson is now considered to have the single season record for Slugging % in a season where he had 163 at bats. He dethrones Bonds' 811%. Eugene Bremmer is the single season ERA leader in a season where he threw 6 games. It's apples and oranges, the Negro League seasons were noticeably shorter than the MLB ones, there should be some sort of distinction. They played professionally, it's part of baseballs history but there needs to be a separating marker.

Do I wish there was a way to reverse time, and make it so there was never a color barrier and that all of these men had an opportunity to play in the MLB? Of course I do, but that's impossible. The Negro Leagues were different than the Majors, though, I'm not talking about from a talent perspective, but strictly speaking the amount of games being played.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Do you make the same claims about 19th century players? If not why not? All their stats aren’t complete.

Yes, it's a similar situation, where some teams were excellent and consistent, and others.... not so much, largely due to sketchy financing.

What I'd previously read about the negro leagues was that the stats known at the time (which was admittedly quite some time ago) included known stats from barnstorming games against random town teams.

It seems things have improved a lot, and the known stats have been limited to games against league competition, which makes it nearly identical to some 19th century stuff.
It will take a lot of getting used to.

[mq711]

The next MLB record book update will include Helen Fox as having the greatest pitching year ever, 31 wins and an era under one. Why no push for her induction into the hall of fame? Played in organized league, excluded from MLB because of gender and I guess the the stats are as accurate as NLB.

[Jason19th]

[QUOTE=mq711;2115031]The next MLB record book update will include Helen Fox as having the greatest pitching year ever, 31 wins and an era under one. Why no push for her induction into the hall of fame? Played in organized league, excluded from MLB because of gender and I guess the the stats are as accurate as NLB.[/

Her exclusion wasn’t based on her gender but her skill. From Ada Weiss to the Bloomer girls, Lizzie Murphy to Mamee Johnson, while there have been many highly skilled female players I don’t think anyone is seriously arguing that they were MLB players. The game that the women played in the 40’s profession League was closer to modern fast pitch softball then baseball. This is not to say that I don’t believe that there will not eventually be a female player. In nearly all sports the gaps between female and male performance is shrinking. I would not be surprised if a women plays in the next twenty years. Especially if the game goes back to valuing on base and manufactured runs