What Am I?

[steve B]

The stamp also has perforated initials of a company, called a perfin in that hobby. Doing that was approved in I think 1908 to help companies prevent mailroom pilferage.
Pattern B152 used by Bankers Life Association in Des Moines Iowa if you're curious.

It's perforated 12 - 12 holes per 2cm. It was current from 1908-1912.
It comes with two different watermarks, but they are very hard to tell while a stamp is on paper. I have the device needed, and have never gotten it to work reliably. The change came in 1910, but old stock would have been used for some time after.

I doubt it was mailed, either as a postcard or as a piece of first class mail.

[oldeboo]

Not that you don't already have enough, but I have a few more headscratchers for you.

"Pittsburgh" wasn't officially "Pittsburgh" again until mid 1911 after a decent hiatus, it was "Pittsburg" up until then. Now you do see the "h" used on occasion like on the 1910 Tip Top cards, but it was less common and not correct. Think about the T206 Wagner that uses "Pittsburg" across the chest. Even in the 1912 T207 set "Pittsburg" was still being used. Changes like that take time to catch on, you see it on all sorts of things like postcards well into 1912 and even 1913 some.

The image of Byrne is also used for many different items as you can see below. The T204 was doctored a little to smooth out the front. On the M116 the wrinkles are still there. It would certainly not have had "Pittsburgh" across the chest when he was playing for Saint Louis. "Pittsburg" across the chest as seen on the T206 Wagner card and others was just a fantasy, the uniforms didn't look like that. I can't find any other images at all with the color added like yours across the chest and collar. Someone put a decent amount of effort into coloring that.

To top it off, both of your cards with bottoms use different font and words. The Pittsburgh line is a different font style. Also, one uses "club," and "team" is used on the other.

What very odd and strange pieces.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

I doubt it was mailed, either as a postcard or as a piece of first class mail.

Plus, the stamp was clearly not cancelled while on this card, as the cancellation doesn't extend beyond the stamp.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by steve B

The stamp also has perforated initials of a company, called a perfin in that hobby. Doing that was approved in I think 1908 to help companies prevent mailroom pilferage.
Pattern B152 used by Bankers Life Association in Des Moines Iowa if you're curious.

It's perforated 12 - 12 holes per 2cm. It was current from 1908-1912.
It comes with two different watermarks, but they are very hard to tell while a stamp is on paper. I have the device needed, and have never gotten it to work reliably. The change came in 1910, but old stock would have been used for some time after.

I doubt it was mailed, either as a postcard or as a piece of first class mail.

To add to what Steve said, this is a machine cancel not a hand stamp. A machine cancel would continue onto the item to which the stamp is affixed. It could not start and stop at the perfs.

[sb1]

My initial thought when I got the first group was the era that they could be from a large time frame. I did not imagine they were 1909 just because of the Horner Litho date. They could have been made in the 1940's for all I knew. However, they are on clay coated paper which is more frequently used on cards and postcards of the 1900-1910's era and not later.

I still think the latest piece has been with the RPPC's for a very long time, most of which had AZO Triangles Up, which would have been used circa 1904-1918. One of the family photos has a couple and their first child(2-3 years old) which was born in 1917 which is on an AZO Triangles Up/Down( a post 1918 marking), the others being earlier images, which all makes sense to date them in the early teens, thus the Pittsburgh spelling.

[sb1]

The rest of the original group images for those that have not seen them or did not want to search the site for them..

[Luke]

Wow. No idea what they are, but what an incredible find for $10 per.

[oldeboo]

On Adams, Gibson, and Wagner are you able to make out what it says in the bottom left of the images? That is certainly a clue. I'm not sure if that was discussed before. It looks like it says something "& Co." It's hard to make out from the images.

Also, just to be sure, when looking at these in hand is there any chance the "Pittsburgh" and other added color was done by hand on these? Or does it appear to be added prior to printing?

[sb1]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

On Adams, Gibson, and Wagner are you able to make out what it says in the bottom left of the images? That is certainly a clue. I'm not sure if that was discussed before. It looks like it says something "& Co." It's hard to make out from the images.

Also, just to be sure, when looking at these in hand is there any chance the "Pittsburgh" and other added color was done by hand on these? Or does it appear to be added prior to printing?

Forgot that little detail, it is "Bragdon - PGH." Which is well known engraver/printer John C. Bragdon of Pittsburgh who died in 1922. Probably another indication that they are from the 1910's..

[sb1]

Originally Posted by Luke

Wow. No idea what they are, but what an incredible find for $10 per.

Luke, the original group was not $10 each, quite a bit more. I just got the recent Clarke with stamp and address and a handful of RPPC's that cost about $10 each.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by sb1

The rest of the original group images for those that have not seen them or did not want to search the site for them..

Possibly team issued?

[sb1]

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Possibly team issued?

Hard to say, each one has been cut from a larger group piece OR at the very least a larger individual host. One would think others would exist if mass produced. So I am thinking some type of broadside or such with a small initial print run..

[oldeboo]

I have a really wild theory that I don't think is so wild.

-These were found local to the Pittsburgh area.
-They are hand cut.
-There is at least 3 or 4 different fonts being used from card to card. It is highly unlikely a printer would do this on anything intended to be distributed, especially on the same sheet as others. It would look pretty silly and unprofessional.
-"Team" and "Club" would very unlikely be on the same sheet, especially if intended for any sort of distribution or even a window display. Again, way too sloppy.
-Leifield is cropped differently, I'll get into that.
-These all have the Horner/Johnston copyright. It's very possible these were added before whoever requested them received the images.
-Seeing the one's that say "World's Champions," it's rather obvious these were intended to celebrate the 1909 WS team. So these would be late 1909 or early 1910. Especially since one or two of these guys were only with the team until 1910.

I've never seen "Pittsburgh" across the chest on anything from this era, except the 1910 Tip Top cards that happen to celebrate the "World's Champions" as well. Has anyone else seen "Pittsburgh" in this context? They indeed all have the same images when comparing the Tip Tops and hand cuts, except the Leifield variation again. I think it's very possible these are some sort of prototypes or artist's/printer's proofs directly related to the producers of the Ward-Mackey cards. They potentially belonged to a few different proof sheets explaining the different fonts and "team"/"club" usage. They might have been trying to see what looked best for a potential print run of postcards if they could sell it to a customer. This explains the Leifield as well, there may be many others that were made with the oval crop to see how a postcard like that would look. Alternatively, maybe they were on the same sheet and the printer just picked random font because these were only intended to be used by the artist to create the Tip Top cards, so they just needed the info(spelling, position, etc). I think the postcard proof theory from the same producers of the Ward-Mackey cards makes the most sense. The chance of it being something other than outlined seems pretty slim.

This would fit with the Clarke having stuff on the back. Forged signature, writing after creasing, and a non matching stamp. These things were done after their intended use was complete and they were no longer needed. That particular card is deceiving and throwing people off to what these really are.

There is a solid chance these are very, VERY SPECIAL. Unfortunately, I think we need a few more clues to come to a definitive conclusion.