Buyer Beware: CMIZ5290 board member

[Throttlesteer]

Its an authentic Gehrig. At the very least, the seller should accept the return and refund + grading fee. Its not like the card can't be sold again. Its not worth your reputation based on a misunderstanding of semantics for a $1k card.

[Exhibitman]

Lemme inject a little contract law here: first, we take words of a contract at their common meanings unless there are terms of art involved, and second, we do not assume that people insert meaningless clauses. The statement "authentic, and will grade" is a guarantee of two things, set apart by the ", and'. Authentic means it is not a fake but it could be altered. "Will grade" means it will be assigned a numerical grade by a TPG. In the hobby "grade" is commonly understood to refer to a numerical grade. If the guarantee was only meant to be "authentic" and if "authentic" also was intended to itself be a grade, then the second clause of the guarantee would be superfluous. The fact that it was added to the guarantee means one of two things:

--The seller warranted the card to not only be authentic but to also get a numerical grade, as the buyer understood it; or

--The seller misled the buyer, whether or not intentionally, by using this phrase.

Either way, the likely outcome in my court is a ruling for the buyer.

MORE TO THE POINT THIS IS A GEHRIG SOLD BETWEEN MEMBERS OF THE BOARD AND A GENTLEMAN WOULD REFUND THE BUYER AND RESELL THE CARD. A fellow member is unhappy and scorching your rep publicly, it isn't worth it. Besides, I'm sure there is a ready market for the card in any condition. Hell, in the four months since the sale and in this market it is probably worth more.

[samosa4u]

Tim is a great guy and he has had a pretty rough year due to health issues. I reached out to him and we had a nice chat (I've been down the same road). It's sad that somebody would put him through this. Kevin, stop behaving like a dickhead and give the guy his money back.

[Tyruscobb]

I do not personally know the seller or buyer. I have never transacted with them. I make these statements to illustrate that I am not biased, and have no dog in this fight. Im not saying one is right and the other is wrong. I’m just providing how I interpret the seller’s post.

I think the seller has painted himself into a corner. Let’s break down his advertising post, which is an invitation for an offer.

His first two words were “fair condition.” This is special language that the hobby universally recognizes means the card’s condition is equivalent to a 1.5 grade. The industry standard is that poor condition means a one grade, fair condition means a 1.5 grade, and good condition means a two grade. So, from the very beginning, the seller is telling potentially buyers that he thinks the card will grade a 1.5.

Later, the seller states, “I guarantee the card to be authentic and grade.” There are two reasonable inferences a potential buyer can draw from this statement. The first is the that seller is guaranteeing the card is authentic. Simple enough.

Secondly and significantly, the seller also guarantees the card will grade. But, what “grade” is the seller guaranteeing? Well, let’s go back to the post’s first two word - “fair condition” which again the hobby universally recognizes is a 1.5.

“Guarantee” is such a strong word. It undoubtedly helps any seller sell a card. The reason is a buyer relies on this word and trusts that the card is what the seller guarantees it is.

In this case, the post’s plain language and its reasonably inference is the seller guaranteed the card’s authenticity and that it would grade a 1.5. The card was not what the seller guaranteed. The question is now: what is the proper remedy, if any, if the card does not meet a seller’s guarantee on this site?

[Lorewalker]

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Leon

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

Rightfully so, Leon. I guess this is why we have police. Some people need to be caught and punished because they cannot do the right thing on their own accord. Just don't get putting a 1K price tag on one's reputation.

Even if the seller refunds it should not have even taken being humiliated in a thread to make the correction.

[griffon512]

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by griffon512

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

If something isn't illegal, or too offending and in the correct BST spot, a member could try to sell them.

>

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by griffon512

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

That would be in the Golf B/S/T under the Greg Norman subheader.

[Tao_Moko]

Am I the only one that doesn't like the look of this card? It is not a set I've ever given much attention to, but based solely on the above picture would have walked away. As far as the transaction - we are a community and sometimes bs has to be called out for buyer and/or seller conduct. This is the jury. Pretty overwhelming that a refund should be given.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Am I the only one that doesn't like the look of this card? It is not a set I've ever given much attention to, but based solely on the above picture would have walked away. As far as the transaction - we are a community and sometimes bs has to be called out for buyer and/or seller conduct. This is the jury. Pretty overwhelming that a refund should be given.

After looking at the card on a large screen in my office I ruled out some initial concerns that I had. The image appeared to have discoloration and wear patterns that are consistent with reproductions but appears better when viewed at 42 inches Also, I don't believe Kevin would intentionally sell a reproduction(and skilled at identifying them) so my apologies to him for my above statement. I'll also add, in the spirit of removing divisiveness, that Kevin and I had a disagreement years ago and what I found was our communication turned positive through conversation. Selling miscut cards and discounting/bumping them is not a big deal to me. Having a sales pitch doesn't really bother me either. Kevin has had some pretty beautiful cards that aside from their cut presented extremely well. So, I'm being positive here and suggesting the weight and pull of the community can drive a more positive outcome in the future. Might he have changed his tune with honoring his policy if he didn't feel called out publicly? I've been around card dealers since the early eighties and though some are wonderful, there is a hefty percentage of quirky, stubborn and even outright rude ones too. I would say we are not necessarily better with him gone and we don't know what impact being gone has on his lively hood. Maybe none, but he clearly generates some income from cards. I say give him another chance to make this right according to the communities standards, review his listing style and purchase agreement and be welcomed back for another shot.

edited to ad: GO IRISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CJinPA]

Originally Posted by Leon

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

Pretty new to the net54 boards myself but one of the things I've really, really enjoyed is the integrity that people uphold here. I was originally clued in to the site by DJ x2drich2000 while completing a transaction on a card he was selling. Since then, I've purchased from Leon (via his site, nice E92 Dockmans, thank you!), Stetson_1883 and also from Gary Nuchereno through Ed Hans.

Not inexpensive transactions, to say the least but the integrity and 'birds of a feather' crowd make these transactions easy and worthwhile.

I'm not sure why the seller wouldn't refund and accept the card back. The words of the guarantee are there for all to see - INTEGRITY!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

Somehow I think it might be difficult for Kevin to make a sale to people he hasn't dealt with before because of this. He's probably done the right thing many times in the past and there will be people who trust him and those people will continue to purchase cards from him. But trying to make a sale to other members that have read this thread may be a "hard sell".

Just curious, was the card encapsulated with an ALTERED flip? Or was it not encapsulated at all? Any idea what the alteration is?

Question - if Kevin refunds the money, is he also so supposed to pay the grading fee?

Kevin,

If you've had the card over 30 years ago, then your cost on the card (cash or trade) would probably be a lot less than what you sold it for on the BST. Just my opinion, I'd refund the buyer, pay the grading fee (if the card is encapsulated) and sell it to someone that wouldn't mind the card with an ALT designation. If the card is not encapsulated, then that may be a tough sell.


Here are two recent sales for a 33G Gehrig card flipped as AUTH or ALT on fleabay.

I sure hope everyone finds a satisfactory conclusion to this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey...p2047675.l2557


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey...8AAOSwXQ1fKs30