Buyer Beware: CMIZ5290 board member

[Leon]

Originally Posted by conor912

It begs the question, is “authentic” a grade?

Talk amongst yaselves.

No, saying something will grade is not meaning AUT in our sphere. Period. That is my thought But i am listening. And the OP asked me about this situation and if he should post it. My answer is obvious....
I don't think we want weasley semantics on our forum. But I am listening...


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[conor912]

Originally Posted by Leon

No, saying something will grade is not meaning AUT in our sphere. Period. That is my thought But i am listening. And the OP asked me about this situation and if he should post it. My answer is obvious....
I don't think we want weasley semantics on our forum. But I am listening...


.

I agree, but apparently there’s at least one person who perhaps doesn’t.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by conor912

I agree, but apparently there’s at least one person who perhaps doesn’t.

My thought is when everyone else is wrong then you (not you specifically) need to look in the mirror. This place needs to be as collector friendly as possible. I doubt Kevin will be able to sell on here any longer if he doesn't offer the refund.

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[clydepepper]

Well said Boss!

[Throttlesteer]

Its an authentic Gehrig. At the very least, the seller should accept the return and refund + grading fee. Its not like the card can't be sold again. Its not worth your reputation based on a misunderstanding of semantics for a $1k card.

[Exhibitman]

Lemme inject a little contract law here: first, we take words of a contract at their common meanings unless there are terms of art involved, and second, we do not assume that people insert meaningless clauses. The statement "authentic, and will grade" is a guarantee of two things, set apart by the ", and'. Authentic means it is not a fake but it could be altered. "Will grade" means it will be assigned a numerical grade by a TPG. In the hobby "grade" is commonly understood to refer to a numerical grade. If the guarantee was only meant to be "authentic" and if "authentic" also was intended to itself be a grade, then the second clause of the guarantee would be superfluous. The fact that it was added to the guarantee means one of two things:

--The seller warranted the card to not only be authentic but to also get a numerical grade, as the buyer understood it; or

--The seller misled the buyer, whether or not intentionally, by using this phrase.

Either way, the likely outcome in my court is a ruling for the buyer.

MORE TO THE POINT THIS IS A GEHRIG SOLD BETWEEN MEMBERS OF THE BOARD AND A GENTLEMAN WOULD REFUND THE BUYER AND RESELL THE CARD. A fellow member is unhappy and scorching your rep publicly, it isn't worth it. Besides, I'm sure there is a ready market for the card in any condition. Hell, in the four months since the sale and in this market it is probably worth more.

[samosa4u]

Tim is a great guy and he has had a pretty rough year due to health issues. I reached out to him and we had a nice chat (I've been down the same road). It's sad that somebody would put him through this. Kevin, stop behaving like a dickhead and give the guy his money back.

[Tyruscobb]

I do not personally know the seller or buyer. I have never transacted with them. I make these statements to illustrate that I am not biased, and have no dog in this fight. Im not saying one is right and the other is wrong. I’m just providing how I interpret the seller’s post.

I think the seller has painted himself into a corner. Let’s break down his advertising post, which is an invitation for an offer.

His first two words were “fair condition.” This is special language that the hobby universally recognizes means the card’s condition is equivalent to a 1.5 grade. The industry standard is that poor condition means a one grade, fair condition means a 1.5 grade, and good condition means a two grade. So, from the very beginning, the seller is telling potentially buyers that he thinks the card will grade a 1.5.

Later, the seller states, “I guarantee the card to be authentic and grade.” There are two reasonable inferences a potential buyer can draw from this statement. The first is the that seller is guaranteeing the card is authentic. Simple enough.

Secondly and significantly, the seller also guarantees the card will grade. But, what “grade” is the seller guaranteeing? Well, let’s go back to the post’s first two word - “fair condition” which again the hobby universally recognizes is a 1.5.

“Guarantee” is such a strong word. It undoubtedly helps any seller sell a card. The reason is a buyer relies on this word and trusts that the card is what the seller guarantees it is.

In this case, the post’s plain language and its reasonably inference is the seller guaranteed the card’s authenticity and that it would grade a 1.5. The card was not what the seller guaranteed. The question is now: what is the proper remedy, if any, if the card does not meet a seller’s guarantee on this site?

[Lorewalker]

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

Somehow I think it might be difficult for Kevin to make a sale to people he hasn't dealt with before because of this. He's probably done the right thing many times in the past and there will be people who trust him and those people will continue to purchase cards from him. But trying to make a sale to other members that have read this thread may be a "hard sell".

Just curious, was the card encapsulated with an ALTERED flip? Or was it not encapsulated at all? Any idea what the alteration is?

Question - if Kevin refunds the money, is he also so supposed to pay the grading fee?

Kevin,

If you've had the card over 30 years ago, then your cost on the card (cash or trade) would probably be a lot less than what you sold it for on the BST. Just my opinion, I'd refund the buyer, pay the grading fee (if the card is encapsulated) and sell it to someone that wouldn't mind the card with an ALT designation. If the card is not encapsulated, then that may be a tough sell.


Here are two recent sales for a 33G Gehrig card flipped as AUTH or ALT on fleabay.

I sure hope everyone finds a satisfactory conclusion to this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey...p2047675.l2557


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey...8AAOSwXQ1fKs30

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

My thought is when everyone else is wrong then you (not you specifically) need to look in the mirror. This place needs to be as collector friendly as possible. I doubt Kevin will be able to sell on here any longer if he doesn't offer the refund.

,

Aaaaand Keeping up With the Kardashians is ending?

[Casey2296]

-Integrity-

The choice between what is convenient and what is right.

[drmondobueno]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

-Integrity-

The choice between what is convenient and what is right.

+1

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Leon

No, saying something will grade is not meaning AUT in our sphere. Period. That is my thought But i am listening. And the OP asked me about this situation and if he should post it. My answer is obvious....
I don't think we want weasley semantics on our forum. But I am listening...


.

I hate grading and am by no means an expert with any of it... That being said, even I know if you say it will grade that means a numerical number. Otherwise I say guaranteed to be Authentic. And I always accept returns as it may just actually be a collector (I know that is rare now a days) and I would want him happy with his card.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I hate grading and am by no means an expert with any of it... That being said, even I know if you say it will grade that means a numerical number. Otherwise I say guaranteed to be Authentic. And I always accept returns as it may just actually be a collector (I know that is rare now a days) and I would want him happy with his card.

Does this policy only apply to raw cards, but not to cards called out on blowout as altered?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Does this policy only apply to raw cards, but not to cards called out on blowout as altered?

There are obviously exceptions to every rule.