Hey, pennant guys

[ooo-ribay]

Beauty, Rick!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Hey Greg, no explanation is necessary, you can certainly buy whatever you want. Personally, I wouldn’t spend over $800 to upgrade a pennant if I already have a nice one. To me, I appreciate the history the pennant represents as well as the artistry involved in making it, so a pennant that shows gentle love is fine for me, I don’t need a mint version.

As an example, the 1947 pennant pictured below was listed on ebay with a $325 BIN (a good price IMO), but before I could hit the button, someone bought it. To me, a Jackie Robinson collector and Dodger fan, finding a dated 1947 pennant from his rookie year is at the top of my list, so I was pretty disappointed it vanished so quickly. About a week later, it reappeared on ebay from the same seller. I contacted her, and was told the buyer returned it, just saying “he didn’t like it”. She said the pennant had belonged to her grandmother, who was a huge Jackie Robinson and Brooklyn Dodger fan, and it was always displayed with pride in her home. I bought it immediately, and couldn’t be happier, as I believe these are rather scarce in any condition. If a mint version appears, I won’t be a bidder. But I understand that there are lots of different factors that drive collectors. And for me, it’s probably a little different than most of you on who are pennant collectors on this forum because I am a Dodger/Koufax/Robinson collector who occasionally buys a pennant related to them.
Attachment 423236

Well yeah of course I don’t have to explain, your mention of the bid/price was a tad unnecessary but you were correct about the first part. We all have our own reasons for collecting - for me it’s an appreciation of the aesthetics. I like how the old pennants look and even how they feel. While I coach baseball (college) and used to follow it religiously as a kid, I don’t even watch the WS now. That being said your 1947 pennant is very cool, very rare, and is in great shape, congrats on a nice pickup.

[rlevy]

Maybe others can chime in on why they collect pennants, might be interesting to see how many collect strictly for the aesthetics, or because of the events the pennant is tied to. It could well be some combination of the 2, or other reasons as well. Rarity could be another factor. For me, it is 65% weighted by the events tied to the pennant versus 35% the pennant's aesthetics. That's probably why I am drawn more to dated pennants.

[perezfan]

For me it's 80% aesthetics / 20% what the pennant commemorates.

The best scenario is a pennant that combines the two, like this 1914 World Tour Pennant...

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Hey Greg, no explanation is necessary, you can certainly buy whatever you want. Personally, I wouldn’t spend over $800 to upgrade a pennant if I already have a nice one. To me, I appreciate the history the pennant represents as well as the artistry involved in making it, so a pennant that shows gentle love is fine for me, I don’t need a mint version.

As an example, the 1947 pennant pictured below was listed on ebay with a $325 BIN (a good price IMO), but before I could hit the button, someone bought it. To me, a Jackie Robinson collector and Dodger fan, finding a dated 1947 pennant from his rookie year is at the top of my list, so I was pretty disappointed it vanished so quickly. About a week later, it reappeared on ebay from the same seller. I contacted her, and was told the buyer returned it, just saying “he didn’t like it”. She said the pennant had belonged to her grandmother, who was a huge Jackie Robinson and Brooklyn Dodger fan, and it was always displayed with pride in her home. I bought it immediately, and couldn’t be happier, as I believe these are rather scarce in any condition. If a mint version appears, I won’t be a bidder. But I understand that there are lots of different factors that drive collectors. And for me, it’s probably a little different than most of you on who are pennant collectors on this forum because I am a Dodger/Koufax/Robinson collector who occasionally buys a pennant related to them.
Attachment 423236

Could not agree more. In this era of counterfeits and reproduction, I wouldn't really want something that didn't show it's age. And for the record, for me, the condition of the Dodgers pennant can't be improved upon. It's as "Mint" as I'd ever want it.

[rlevy]

Mark, that is absolutely beautiful. And for a very cool event.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Maybe others can chime in on why they collect pennants, might be interesting to see how many collect strictly for the aesthetics, or because of the events the pennant is tied to. It could well be some combination of the 2, or other reasons as well. Rarity could be another factor. For me, it is 65% weighted by the events tied to the pennant versus 35% the pennant's aesthetics. That's probably why I am drawn more to dated pennants.

Giants, Giants, Giants.....and Giants, Giants, Giants!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Could not agree more. In this era of counterfeits and reproduction, I wouldn't really want something that didn't show it's age. And for the record, for me, the condition of the Dodgers pennant can't be improved upon. It's as "Mint" as I'd ever want it.

For the record, the ‘55 is not mint, just very close. My guess is that we are all “expert” enough to spot a fake/repro from a mile away and if not, the second we touch it. ... my concern about flawless pennants is that it might reflect a “find” of a whole batch which affects its value. As much as I go for eye appeal, I want to be able to get my money back at some point.

[bocca001]

Nice pennant, Mark.

For me, it is a combination of both. I moved from cards to pennants (some photos, broadsides) because I like to easily view/display what I buy. Dated pennants are nice, but there are so few for my primary teams (Santa Clara, San Jose, Giants, 49ers).

Because I was bred as a card collector, I still think about condition, but I am more flexible with pennants than I am with cards. I wish I knew more about the backstory of the pennants I own, but it seems that very few come with such info.

[MK]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Maybe others can chime in on why they collect pennants, might be interesting to see how many collect strictly for the aesthetics, or because of the events the pennant is tied to. It could well be some combination of the 2, or other reasons as well. Rarity could be another factor. For me, it is 65% weighted by the events tied to the pennant versus 35% the pennant's aesthetics. That's probably why I am drawn more to dated pennants.

I like to think I’m preserving history by collecting what I do. These souvenirs were once a large part of the sport but the things sold now are just junk. I often look at things I have like this 1929 pennant and wonder if it was purchased at Wrigley Field during the World Series. I also wonder about the road it took to end up on my wall.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

For me it's 80% aesthetics / 20% what the pennant commemorates.

The best scenario is a pennant that combines the two, like this 1914 World Tour Pennant...

Beautiful ... my favorites of yours (among so many great ones) are the leather Tigers and the Clark Griffith Nationals pennant.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Nice 1947 Dodgers pennant Rick. I have the matching Yankees. I am with you. I don’t mind smaller condition issues if the display is still good. That mainly goes for my Yankees collection. For resale, condition is king. One thing I don’t really like is bad fading. I can deal with some minor tears or holes, but bad fading get me.

[thetahat]

This is nice ... and strange, currently on eBay. It has the Keezer stamp on the back ... The thick tassels and stitching are indicative of Keezer - it’s definitely legit IMO - but the design is very much Trench. Keezer art is very distinct and nothing like this.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

For the record, the ‘55 is not mint, just very close. My guess is that we are all “expert” enough to spot a fake/repro from a mile away and if not, the second we touch it. ... my concern about flawless pennants is that it might reflect a “find” of a whole batch which affects its value. As much as I go for eye appeal, I want to be able to get my money back at some point.

I was actually referring to Rick's '47 Dodgers. Can't believe anyone would return that due to condition. It looks exactly like I'd want a 70+ year pennant to look. Obviously, your 55 is beautiful too.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I was actually referring to Rick's '47 Dodgers. Can't believe anyone would return that due to condition. It looks exactly like I'd want a 70+ year pennant to look. Obviously, your 55 is beautiful too.

Oh yes, I know.... if one looks only for mint condition baseball pennants he will have a tiny collection.

Now the original buyer didn’t return it because of condition. I know because it was me! I goofed actually. I assumed it was a 3/4 size pennant (26”) the length was actually given in the description but I missed it. It’s a great pennant but not really in my collecting wheelhouse. She accepted returns for any reason as policy, I mailed it back in a sleeve. It is very cool and I don’t know of another 1947 dated Dodgers pennant.

[thetahat]

Key point: it was a BIN, wasn’t up long, there was no downside to the seller. Had it been an auction, I wouldn’t have returned it.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

This is nice ... and strange, currently on eBay. It has the Keezer stamp on the back ... The thick tassels and stitching are indicative of Keezer - it’s definitely legit IMO - but the design is very much Trench. Keezer art is very distinct and nothing like this.

Yeah, this is an odd Bruins pennant, isn't it? I completely agree, Greg. It is legit ... sorta.

In my research of both Keezer and Trench, I noted that, toward the later 1960s, Keezer began copying Trench's artwork. This is especially reflected in Keezer pennants for local New England teams. They did the same with a handful of ca. 1967 Red Sox pennants from that era: one that featured the same distinctive "Boston" cursive; and another featuring a photo window--all stolen from Trench.

Additionally, as concerns these limited acts of plagiarism, you will note that the graphics are polychromatic. This was the first time in Keezer's history to my knowledge that they ever got this fancy.

It's lack of originality notwithstanding, I love this Bruins pennant!

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Oh yes, I know.... if one looks only for mint condition baseball pennants he will have a tiny collection.

Now the original buyer didn’t return it because of condition. I know because it was me! I goofed actually. I assumed it was a 3/4 size pennant (26”) the length was actually given in the description but I missed it. It’s a great pennant but not really in my collecting wheelhouse. She accepted returns for any reason as policy, I mailed it back in a sleeve. It is very cool and I don’t know of another 1947 dated Dodgers pennant.

That makes sense Greg. Well, I for one am happy to have one you threw back as it fits in well with the Jackie Robinson stuff I collect. And as you know, it isn't perfect as it does have some wear and is a little dirty. For the record, the seller didn't seem upset at all with the pennant being returned. And if you want to throw back the '55, PLMK

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by rlevy

That makes sense Greg. Well, I for one am happy to have one you threw back as it fits in well with the Jackie Robinson stuff I collect. And as you know, it isn't perfect as it does have some wear and is a little dirty. For the record, the seller didn't seem upset at all with the pennant being returned. And if you want to throw back the '55, PLMK

Rick, I thought it was about as good as you’d want a 73 year old pennant to look. I obviously don’t need 4 of the same pennant, the middle two were simply very good deals. The plan was to eventually use them for trade, but I haven’t been able to get to many shows the past few years and the ones I did attend have had slim pickings ...

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

It is very cool and I don’t know of another 1947 dated Dodgers pennant.

Greg, there is this other Brooklyn pennant from '47....

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Greg, there is this other Brooklyn pennant from '47....

Ah yes I remember this now. Also very rare. Thanks Domer!

[thetahat]

Starting to dive a little into football, if only for the ones that look cool. Had a chance to grab two of the best looking, IMO. I just love the cloth when it isn’t faded. This seems to be a non-Trench version of the goldpanner, I have another like it and also one that is much more colorful. But the giveaway is the stitching on the back is not Trench but resembles ASCO or Keezer (though I don’t think it is them, either.)

[ooo-ribay]

^^^^ A little OT but when I want to exclude the SF football team from my searches, I have to specify 49ers, 49’ers and 49er’s. Everyone seems to have a different idea of how it’s spelled.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Starting to dive a little into football, if only for the ones that look cool. Had a chance to grab two of the best looking, IMO. I just love the cloth when it isn’t faded. This seems to be a non-Trench version of the goldpanner, I have another like it and also one that is much more colorful. But the giveaway is the stitching on the back is not Trench but resembles ASCO or Keezer (though I don’t think it is them, either.)

That Rams pennant is a stunner ... very rare. Great colors.

I'm quite certain both are actually by Trench. Trench used that same "Los Angeles" cursive script on their late 1950s Dodgers pennants; and that mascot-inside-the-tilted-football graphic was part of a series that, again, traces back to Buffalo, NY.

I don't know anything about the stitching anomaly you spotted. Maybe they used different kinds of sewing machines for different kinds of materials?

[bocca001]

I looked closely at that pennant, Greg. The grey spine was different than most others I had seen. I had wondered if it was added later. Here is a picture of some of the color variants of that pennant (not mine).

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Starting to dive a little into football, if only for the ones that look cool. Had a chance to grab two of the best looking, IMO. I just love the cloth when it isn’t faded. This seems to be a non-Trench version of the goldpanner, I have another like it and also one that is much more colorful. But the giveaway is the stitching on the back is not Trench but resembles ASCO or Keezer (though I don’t think it is them, either.)

That's one of my favorite Rams pennants and hard to find so dark. Great buy!

[bocca001]

This one just arrived today. There are many versions of the Astros Astrodome style pennants, but I had never seen one with these exact graphics/colors. Was pleasantly surprised to find out that it was cloth, not felt, and in really nice shape for a cloth pennant.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

This one just arrived today. There are many versions of the Astros Astrodome style pennants, but I had never seen one with these exact graphics/colors. Was pleasantly surprised to find out that it was cloth, not felt, and in really nice shape for a cloth pennant.

You should concentrate on Astros.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I looked closely at that pennant, Greg. The grey spine was different than most others I had seen. I had wondered if it was added later. Here is a picture of some of the color variants of that pennant (not mine).

Wow these are fantastic!

[bocca001]

Here you go, Ooo-ribay. Some new Astros pickups, and a very non-threatening Giants pickup. The Giants and orange Astros are new old stock.

[perezfan]

Nice Astros w/Batter, Marc...

Not sure I’ve ever seen it with forest green felt. Very attractive variation!

[bocca001]

Thanks, Mark. Luckily for me, these Astros pennants are not very expensive. If the exact same pennant said Houston Colts on it (a year or two earlier), it would cost 5-10 times as much. I think a red Colts version just went for $250 or so.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by thetahat

It appears that these are the only teams in the box, many of the same

So you don't think the pennants are legit?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by biohazard

So you don't think the pennants are legit?

No ... I do think they are legit. Why do you think otherwise?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Here you go, Ooo-ribay. Some new Astros pickups, and a very non-threatening Giants pickup. The Giants and orange Astros are new old stock.

The middle pennant is especially nice. Its an ASCO, and I have yet to see this in cloth (as I am trying to complete that set).

[murphusa]

cool find yesterday

[ooo-ribay]

[perezfan]

That Bum in a cloud above the Coliseum is one of the truly great post-war Pennants on so many levels. Probably the Dodgers first-ever pennant after leaving Brooklyn. Two Beauties!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

That Bum in a cloud above the Coliseum is one of the truly great post-war Pennants on so many levels. Probably the Dodgers first-ever pennant after leaving Brooklyn. Two Beauties!

I agree with Mark, that Trench CEO might not have cared much about quality (per Kyle’s interview) but he had some creative designers. Beautiful pennant!

[thetahat]

I wonder though, is the Bum dreaming about future Dodger Stadium? The little baseball trademark seems more early 60s to me. I would think the other Bum in Coliseum pennant might predate it, or coincide ... or who cares it’s awesome no matter what!

[perezfan]

I bet they were sold concurrently. Just a hunch with nothing to back it up.

We’ve all seen the pics of stadium vendors selling Pennants. And back then, it wasn’t unusual to see 4-5 different variations being peddled at the same time.

I guess we’ll never know for sure unless a definitive photo surfaces... which is highly doubtful. Almost as doubtful as the Trench CEO recalling it from memory.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I wonder though, is the Bum dreaming about future Dodger Stadium? The little baseball trademark seems more early 60s to me. I would think the other Bum in Coliseum pennant might predate it, or coincide ... or who cares it’s awesome no matter what!

Believe it or not: this "new home" was what Walter O'Malley envisioned as his Brooklyn Super Stadium, a facility he hoped to construct atop a train station, providing convenient transport to/from the suburbs via the Long Island Express. At one point, O'Malley's super stadium was to be a domed ballpark--first of its kind, well ahead of the Astrodome.

The image was created by legendary artist Willard Mullin and originally appeared on the cover of the team's 1954 year book.

We can thank urban planner Robert Moses for thwarting O'Malley's grand plan. Moses was only willing to allow for a stadium in Queens--not Brooklyn. This, O'Malley said, was the straw that broke the camel's back. He promptly met with LA City Council members who offered him Chavez Ravine, and the rest is history....

The above notwithstanding, this didn't stop Trench from "appropriating" the artwork on to one of their pennants a few years later. This time, they swapped out the image of the super stadium for, of all things, a halo.... With this alteration in mind, they must have felt the "new home" reference was obvious: Dodger Stadium, in the city of Angels.

As talented as Trench's Art Department was, they too had no qualms stealing other artists' work. The other bum depicted on Trench's other Coliseum pennant was also a Willard Mullin creation. The tiny headed giant depicted on NY and SF Giant stadium pennants by Trench was also, I believe, a Willard Mullin illustration.

Note the SportService logo in the bottom left corner.

[ooo-ribay]

Great info, as always, Kyle!

[murphusa]

Thanks Rob for the turn around no matter what I did I could not flip it

BYW they are a total of $25 at a yard sale

[perezfan]

Welcome to my world on the picture flipping!

25 bucks for the pair... that's like getting them completely free from an auction house, and paying only for shipping.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I bet they were sold concurrently. Just a hunch with nothing to back it up.

We’ve all seen the pics of stadium vendors selling Pennants. And back then, it wasn’t unusual to see 4-5 different variations being peddled at the same time.

I guess we’ll never know for sure unless a definitive photo surfaces... which is highly doubtful. Almost as doubtful as the Trench CEO recalling it from memory.

Kyle, I've seen that 1954 yearbook cover so many times and never recognized the Bum connection with the LA "New Home" pennant until you mentioned it.

It was almost certainly sold outside the Coliseum since it was very unlikely O'Malley would have permitted anything picturing the Bum to be sold inside at his concession stands. The Bum didn't fit the image O'Malley was trying to present - the Dodgers were a successful franchise, not likable losers.

We've discussed this before, but I just saw a video on PBS discussing the history of the Dodgers, and there was a wide screenshot of O'Malley at a May 1958 news conference trying to sell the public on voting "Yes" for a new stadium at Chavez Ravine. Pictured behind O'Malley are the 1955 Championship Banner, and an LA Dodger pennant with no Bum in sight
The screenshot and my pennant are pictured below.
1958 O'mally with pennant 3.jpg
1958 press conference with O'Malley.jpg

[Duluth Eskimo]

Rick,
I’ve never seen that pennant before. It’s got to be pretty tough. Some of those new conference or photo op pennants are very limited productions or one off’s. Especially with that dark blue matching piping.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Rick,
I’ve never seen that pennant before. It’s got to be pretty tough. Some of those new conference or photo op pennants are very limited productions or one off’s. Especially with that dark blue matching piping.

Jason, I believe Mark had posted his copy earlier, but I don't believe there are many around. It may be the first "official" LA pennant, not counting the SF/LA commemorative pennant for the first game out west. I bought this in a group of pennants in an auction, so I couldn't ask the owner about its history.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by rlevy

Jason, I believe Mark had posted his copy earlier, but I don't believe there are many around. It may be the first "official" LA pennant, not counting the SF/LA commemorative pennant for the first game out west. I bought this in a group of pennants in an auction, so I couldn't ask the owner about its history.

The only two I have EVER seen are mine and one in a group lot, auctioned by Hunt's in one of their Internet Auctions. Seems like about 6 - 7 months ago. Is that where you obtained it, Rick?

If so then it's just those two that I'm aware of. Make it three, if Rick got his from someplace other than Hunts.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The only two I have EVER seen are mine and one in a group lot, auctioned by Hunt's in one of their Internet Auctions. Seems like about 6 - 7 months ago. Is that where you obtained it, Rick?

If so then it's just those two that I'm aware of. Make it three, if Rick got his from someplace other than Hunts.

Yes, that was where I bought it, along with some other pennants from the same time period.