Reconstructing the 1963 Topps 6th and 7th Series Sheets

[Cliff Bowman]

I now have this combination but I don't know where they are placed exactly on the sheet.

[BillP]

Great stuff Cliff..... watching where this comes out.

[Kevvyg1026]

Do the miscuts on the back of the wrong backs help at all?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Do the miscuts on the back of the wrong backs help at all?

Absolutely, if there is a sliver from another card that can be shown to be from a particular card. That is how I came up with Cuno Barragan next to Wayne Causey, on a miscut Causey back there are two stray lines that I matched up to the Barragan that has two lines of the cartoon that extend beyond the border line. Also, the wrong backs are never centered properly and that is how I figured out the placement of many of the 6th series cards including the Killebrew.

[Kevvyg1026]

Although you most likely have this one, I just saw the image so I thought I would post. Not only is it a WB, but the back is miscut as well, like you stated earlier.

1963-brock.jpg

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Although you most likely have this one, I just saw the image so I thought I would post. Not only is it a WB, but the back is miscut as well, like you stated earlier.



Attachment 419169

Is this card for sale somewhere?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Although you most likely have this one, I just saw the image so I thought I would post. Not only is it a WB, but the back is miscut as well, like you stated earlier.

Attachment 419169

That is Frank Thomas adjacent to the Adair. If I knew where either the Brock or the Adair were on the sheet I would be able to place both of them because they are mirrored opposites on the sheet, but I haven't been able to yet. That Brock is one messed up card, out of register on the front and a wrong player on the back.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Is this card for sale somewhere?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

It's on Pinterest, it would be a cool card to own.

[Kevvyg1026]

There is currently a wrong back card for sale on ebay depicting a front of #466 and a back of #496.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

There is currently a wrong back card for sale on ebay depicting a front of #466 and a back of #496.

Can you please post a link? I can't find it. It works out that I have the Freehan as the top card on the left edge of the yellow 22 card block and I have Dalkowski as the bottom card on the right edge of the red 22 card block, because 1963 wrong backs are always the mirror opposite of the front. It looks like it would throw off my theory on the placement of at least one of the 22 card blocks though, but that is a work in progress. I have some updates on other cards but I am waiting on off center center cards from Greg Morris on eBay. ETA: according to my theorized sheet I have the Freehan card as the first card in the second row and I have the Dalkowski as the last card on the eleventh row, so that would still work out if the back of the sheet was printed upside down like every other wrong 63 that I have ever seen is.

[Kevvyg1026]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-Toops-...-/373119782146

Here's a scan of the back

1963_466_496_WB.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Ha! No wonder I couldn’t find it, the seller has it as TOOPS. Unfortunately it doesn’t show parts of other cards on the back but it does fit perfectly in the pattern of 63 wrong backs, the whole back sheet is always printed upside down and the back will be the mirror image of the card on the front. In this case the front is the top left edge card of the 22 card yellow block, and the back is the bottom right edge card of the 22 card red block.

[Kevvyg1026]

These are the various 6th series wrong backs I have located: As you have noted, a card with a yellow banner & blue inset always has a card with a red banner and green inset on its back. Similarly, a card with yellow banner and red inset has a card with a red banner and yellow inset on its reverse, while the blue/yellow combo has blue/red match.



448 Jack Kralick (Y/B) 473 Mets Team (R/? G)
452 Barney Schultz (R/G) 499 JC Martin (Y/B)
459 Dick LeMay (R/G) 503 Braves Team (Y/?)
462 Wally Post (B/R) 511 Charley Neal (B/Y)
463 Joe Schaffernoth (Y/R) 493 Walt Bond (R/Y)
464 Ken Aspromonte (R/Y) 504 Bob Johnson (Y/R)
466 Freehan Rookie (Y) 496 Dalkowski Rookie (Y)
469 Jay Hook (R/G) 505 Curt Flood (Y/B)
472 Lou Brock (B/R) 488 Jerry Adair (B/Y)
473 Mets Team (R/? G) 448 Jack Kralick (Y/B)
474 Jack Fisher (Y/R) 500 Harmon Killebrew (R/Y)
475 Gus Triandos (R/Y) 482 Felix Torres (Y/R)
476 Frank Funk (R/G) 489 Paul Toth (Y/B)
478 Paul Brown (R/Y) 507 Roland Sheldon (Y/R)
481 Bob Taylor (B/Y) 495 Frank Thomas (B/R)
482 Felix Torres (Y/R) 475 Gus Triandos (R/Y)
488 Jerry Adair (B/Y) 472 Lou Brock (B/R)
489 Paul Toth (Y/B) 476 Frank Funk (R/G)
490 Willie McCovey (B/R) 510 Ken McBride (B/Y)
493 Walt Bond (R/Y) 463 Joe Schaffernoth (Y/R)
495 Frank Thomas (B/R) 481 Bob Taylor (B/Y)
496 Rookies Dalkowski (Y/) 466 Freehan (Y/?)
499 JC Martin (Y/B) 452 Barney Schultz (R/G)
500 Harmon Killebrew (R/Y) 474 Jack Fisher (Y/R)
502 Daryl Spencer (B/R) 455 Ruben Amaro (B/Y)
503 Braves Team (Y/?) 459 Dick LeMay (R/G)
504 Bob Johnson (Y/R) 464 Ken Aspromonte (R/Y)
505 Curt Flood (Y/B) 469 Jay Hook (R/G)
507 Roland Sheldon (Y/R) 478 Paul Brown (R/Y)
510 Ken McBride (B/Y) 490 Willie McCovey (B/R)
511 Charley Neal (B/Y) 462 Wally Post (B/R)

[Kevvyg1026]

Forgot to list 447 (Mantilla) with 458 (Lopez)

[Kevvyg1026]

Doesn't the wrong back on McCovey force McBride (510) to be in C9 of the Amaro row and whatever card is on the wrong back of Monboquette to be in C10?

[Kevvyg1026]

And the Brinkman wrong back has to be next to the Freehan RC?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Doesn't the wrong back on McCovey force McBride (510) to be in C9 of the Amaro row and whatever card is on the wrong back of Monboquette to be in C10?

On post #37 I do have McBride as the 9th card on the Amaro row and I have Jim Owens as the 10th card on the Amaro row.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

And the Brinkman wrong back has to be next to the Freehan RC?

I have Ray Sadecki next to the Freehan on post #37, I don't remember how I came to that conclusion and I would have to go back through all of my scans to see why I did. I don't remember if there is a Brinkman/Sadecki wrong back or if it was something else. ETA: If I remember correctly I have scans of way off center backs of either Kralick or Sadecki and it could be verified that Kralick and Sadecki were adjacent to each other on the 22 card yellow block, that is how I placed Sadecki there. I don't know if there are any documented Brinkman/Sadecki wrong backs.

[Kevvyg1026]

I think you placed #511 next to Reuben Amaro (455). If so, does that mean this wrong back of #511 allow you to put #462 next to Indians team (502)?

1963_511_WB_462.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

Sorry, meant Spencer (502), not Indians team

[Cliff Bowman]

I think the problem might be that you are using an iPhone and the sheet is breaking up into two. Here are pics of the top part and bottom part of the 6th series sheet that should show up correctly on iPhones.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here are some scans that I have that I have never been able to make a decision on which card is next to it with certainty. I believe it is either Neal or Savage to the left of Tresh but the scan is off of WorthPoint and I can't make it better quality.

[Kevvyg1026]

Based on the length of the thick, black frame on the Elston card, it would appear that the card below it must be either 519, 534, or 567

[Kevvyg1026]

The Bob Taylor miscut back would suggest that the card above it must be of the flavor Blue banner, red inset (probably not though) or more likely red banner, green inset.

It would appear that the only two possible cards would be 458 & 473.

However, I thought you had mentioned that Kralick was above Sadecki. If so, then 448 (Kralick) has to be in Column 2. Then because of the Kralick wrong back, Mets team (473) will be in Column 10, and Taylor won't be above that card. Therefore, I would conclude that the card sliver shown on the Taylor miscut is 458, Lopez.

[Kevvyg1026]

Based on this wrong back of 479/486, I would expect the card above the Brinkman to be an upside down Yellow Banner, Red inset. The size of the frame appears to match up with that of Regan, 494.

1963_brinkman.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

Based on the miscut of Braves team (503), the card above it might be Clevenger (457)

1963_503.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Based on the miscut of Braves team (503), the card above it might be Clevenger (457)

Attachment 428589

You are good, I think you nailed it. According to my layout of the 6th series sheet it would jibe because the Braves team card is in the yellow based/blue circle row and Tex Clevenger is in the blue based/red circle row and I have them abutting each other.

[Cliff Bowman]

Kevvyg1026, since I can't post scans in PM's I will answer your question here. You were wondering how I decided that Charlie Neal is next to Ruben Amaro and opposite of Bill Monbouquette. I couldn't remember so I went back through all of my scans and I think it was from this miscut Monbouquette which I decided had to be Neal. I think I took the sliver at the bottom of the front of the miscut Monbouquette and compared it to all of blue based/orange circle cards in the 6th series and decided that it could only be Neal. ETA: I believe I also based it it on the sliver showing on the Owens wrong back which is Post, and since I could place Post opposite Owens that meant I could also place Neal opposite of Monbouquette because there is a Post/Neal wrong back combo.

[Kevvyg1026]

Thank you for the explanation. There is a miscut 490 (McCovey) back where you can see the length of the personal stats/cartoon box frame. I went through all of the Blue/yellow (Amaro lead card) cards, and the cards that best fit were 510 & 511, which confused me since I thought we knew the positions of those cards.

However, I soon realized that the McCovey card also abuts the Yellow/Blue row, headed by Coker. Cards that can't fit are: 491, 499, 498, 503 (known strings don't mesh) as well as 456, 448, & 505 (know their places). That leaves 447, 450, 454, and 489. Of these, I felt that 447 (Mantilla) matched the frame size well.

If 447 is the correct card under McCovey in row 9, then that would permit you to put 458 (Lopez) next to 473 in both rows 4 & 12.

[Kevvyg1026]

Based on the Regan miscut you sent me, the Yellow banner, red inset cards should be at the top or bottom of the sheet, rather than the Yellow-blue cards. That changes some of the layout.

Also, 489 Toth has a wrong back of Fred Funk (476), not Mets team (473) as shown in the scan. The Mets team wrong back has 448, Kralick.

So, I think if Toth is under Sadecki (i.e., in column 2), then Fred Funk should be in Column 10 of the Red-green row.

[Kevvyg1026]

The Killebrew string (red-banner, yellow insert), from left-to-right, is 493, 500, 464. Because of wrong-backs, this means there must be an upside down yellow banner, red insert string (from left-to-right) of 504 (Johnson), 474 (Fisher), and 463 (Schaffernorth).

Then, there is a miscut of the back of 504 (johnson) which indicates that either a manager (491, Craft) or team card (503, Braves) must be above that card. Because of the orientation of the thin block on the card back, I believe it is Craft that is above Johnson.

So, if the Yellow banner, blue inset string you showed earlier (Craft, Martin, Kasko) is correct, then that is the three-card string above the upside down yellow-red string of 504 (Johnson), 474 (Fisher), and 463 (Schaffernorth).

In other words, Craft is above Johnson, Martin is above Fisher (not Torres as shown) and Kasko is above Schaffernorth. However, the miscut on the back of Torres (482) clearly suggests that it is the card below Martin (499). So, a dilemma exists. Either the order of cards is not completely correct, or the Braves card is above Johnson.

Thoughts??

[Kevvyg1026]

I think I answered my own question. It is probably the Braves team card (503) that is above Johnson

[Kevvyg1026]

Found this miscut on ebay. Shows that Monboquette is either above or below a team card. The only possibilities are: 473 Mets team (red banner, green inset) or 503 Braves team (yellow banner, blue inset). The other team card in the series, Indians team (451), has already been established as being in the same row as Monboquette.

I believe that may alter some of the potential layouts that were discussed earlier.

1963_480.jpg

[bb66]

Kudos to Cliff and Kevvyg for more great detective work. Very impressive--thanks. Following this closely!

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Found this miscut on ebay. Shows that Monboquette is either above or below a team card. The only possibilities are: 473 Mets team (red banner, green inset) or 503 Braves team (yellow banner, blue inset). The other team card in the series, Indians team (451), has already been established as being in the same row as Monboquette.

I believe that may alter some of the potential layouts that were discussed earlier.

Attachment 429397

I don't know how you find these scans, I can't find that Monbouquette anywhere. If you have a scenario where the blue based/red circle row abuts into the red based/green circle row then it would work out with the Monbouquette and the Mets team card each being the second card in each respective row or the tenth card in each respective row if the two rows are flipped over.

[Kevvyg1026]

Unfortunately, for me at least, I was furloughed for Covid-related reasons, so I spend most of my available time searching for such things. Lol

[Kevvyg1026]

I noticed in an earlier post that you had placed the Tigers team (552) as well as the Murtaugh card (559) in the Reg banner-green inset row. I believe that forces the Gary Peters RC (522) to be a Red banner yellow inset card in order for there to be 11 of each flavor. This would also put the Peters card above a red-green card.

[Kevvyg1026]

In an earlier post, you referred to a recurring print defect which affects multiple cards in the yellow banner blue inset row. Can you describe what that is ?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

In an earlier post, you referred to a recurring print defect which affects multiple cards in the yellow banner blue inset row. Can you describe what that is ?

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=213736

[Kevvyg1026]

Thank you, I found it just a little bit ago.

I also found a reference to a wrong back Crandal/Regan in that messageboard. That allows me to place both in C6, which then allows me to put tartabull in C2 and daniels in C7. So, I believe the R/Y, R/G, and Y/R strings are now complete.

The Y/B line is missing the placement of two cards (C7 & C10) with the two cards being 450 & 454.

Finally, the WB of Tartabull (449) and Worthington (556) probably allows you to place 556 in C10 of the R/G line for Series 7.

[Kevvyg1026]

Here's an ad which ran in the Aug 3, 1963 issue of The Sporting News. Please note the series numbering for both series 6 & 7. Also, based on the date progression of earlier ads, it would appear that the series release dates were before:

Series 1 - Feb 23
Series 2 - March 23
Series 3 - Apr 6
Series 4 - Apr 20
Series 5 - May 4
Series 6 - June 1
Series 7 - June 15

Aug_3_1963_pg_28.JPG

[bb66]

Some of those Series release dates are very surprising to me. I thought some of those would be much later in the summer.Maybe the Sporting news holds additional info. Thanks for the info.

[Kevvyg1026]

Those dates come from ads placed by Marshal Oreck. However, here is an ad from The Trading Company, dated July 6 which enunciated that all 7 series were available.

July_6_1963.JPG

[Kevvyg1026]

Here's a scan of the 6th series checklist (#431, Yellow banner) that was most likely issued with the series 5 printing. The red banner version of this checklist was probably issued with the 6th series printing.

1963_431_yellow_marked.JPG

And here is a 7th series Clemente (#540) with Hank Fischer (#554) showing adjacent to it.

1963_540_2.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

Using a pattern of R/Y, R/G UD, B/R, B/O UD, Y/B, and Y/R UD then a repeat of that pattern to fill out the slit, we can have Monbo (480) below the Mets team (473) and above Neal (511) in C10 of the slit, which matches what we know about miscuts on both top & bottom of Monbo, as well as the left (490) and right (451) of the Monbo card.

So
C1 has 431, 469, 502, 485, 456, 466 (then repeats),
C2 has 460, 487, 462, 483, 448, 486,:
C10 has 479, 473, 480, 511, xx, 494 and
C11 has 496, 501, 451, 455, 505, and 509.

This accounts for all the wrong backs correctly.

The xx in C10 has to be either 454 or 450 since all the other Y/B cards have their wrong backs accounted for (i.e., we know all R/G & Y/B wrong backs except for the R/G 487 & 471, and Y/B 450 & 454). If 487 is in C2, then either 450 or 454 must be in C10.

[Cliff Bowman]

While searching for miscut 1963 cards for this thread, Kevvyg1026 found this interesting sheet edge card of the Marcelino Lopez four player rookie card with printed words on the edge. I'm guessing it has something to do with cutting the sheet, at first I thought it said SIDE DOWN and GUTTER but looking at it again I think it is something else.

[Cliff Bowman]

After nearly six months when I started this thread the 6th Series sheet is nearly complete. It wouldn't be anywhere near this far without the invaluable work of Kevvyg1026. A few months ago he figured out that on the 6th Series sheet the Yellow/Red row goes on top rather than the Yellow/Blue row, and more importantly that the blue rows go in the 3-4 and 9-10 horizontal rows rather than the incorrect 5-6 and 7-8 horizontal rows that I had originally. We also sent scans of miscut cards back and forth through email and about a month ago he sent me what I consider the most valuable miscut of the whole series, a miscut Art Fowler with part of a different color card that could only be Charlie Neal. It was proof that the Yellow/Blue row abutted the Blue/Orange row. The two missing Blue/Red cards are Chuck Estrada and Dave Wickersham. I was also missing the Blue/Red card of Tex Clevenger but Kevvyg1026 sent me a scan of a miscut Clevenger and I was able to match it up to Ken McBride. The 6th Series was less difficult than the 7th Series because of the many wrong back cards that exist in the 6th Series, they are almost nonexistent in the 7th Series. The reason 1963 wrong backs are so informative is that the back of the card is from a sheet that was printed upside down, so the card on the front is the mirror image of the card on the back. For instance, a wrong back Bill Freehan rookie will always have a Steve Dalkowski rookie on the back and vice versa. The sheet repeats the same 66 cards to make a full 132 card sheet.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here is a list of all known wrong backs in 1963 6th Series. They are invaluable because if you know the placement of one side of the card on the sheet you can place the other side of the card on the opposite side of the sheet. The back card is from a back sheet that was printed upside down to the front of the sheet.



448 Jack Kralick (Y/B) 473 Mets Team (R/G)
452 Barney Schultz (R/G) 499 JC Martin (Y/B)
459 Dick LeMay (R/G) 503 Braves Team (Y/B)
460 Del Crandall (R/Y) 494 Phil Regan (Y/R)
462 Wally Post (B/R) 511 Charlie Neal (B/Y)
463 Joe Schaffernoth (Y/R) 493 Walt Bond (R/Y)
464 Ken Aspromonte (R/Y) 504 Bob Johnson (Y/R)
466 Freehan Rookie (Y/R) 496 Dalkowski Rookie (R/Y)
469 Jay Hook (R/G) 505 Curt Flood (Y/B)
472 Lou Brock (B/R) 488 Jerry Adair (B/Y)
473 Mets Team (R/G) 448 Jack Kralick (Y/B)
474 Jack Fisher (Y/R) 500 Harmon Killebrew (R/Y)
475 Gus Triandos (R/Y) 482 Felix Torres (Y/R)
476 Frank Funk (R/G) 489 Paul Toth (Y/B)
478 Paul Brown (R/Y) 507 Roland Sheldon (Y/R)
481 Bob Taylor (B/Y) 495 Frank Thomas (B/R)
482 Felix Torres (Y/R) 475 Gus Triandos (R/Y)
488 Jerry Adair (B/Y) 472 Lou Brock (B/R)
489 Paul Toth (Y/B) 476 Frank Funk (R/G)
490 Willie McCovey (B/R) 510 Ken McBride (B/Y)
493 Walt Bond (R/Y) 463 Joe Schaffernoth (Y/R)
494 Phil Regan (Y/R) 460 Del Crandall (R/Y)
495 Frank Thomas (B/R) 481 Bob Taylor (B/Y)
496 Rookies Dalkowski (R/Y) 466 Freehan (Y/R)
499 JC Martin (Y/B) 452 Barney Schultz (R/G)
500 Harmon Killebrew (R/Y) 474 Jack Fisher (Y/R)
502 Daryl Spencer (B/R) 455 Ruben Amaro (B/Y)
503 Braves Team (Y/B) 459 Dick LeMay (R/G)
504 Bob Johnson (Y/R) 464 Ken Aspromonte (R/Y)
505 Curt Flood (Y/B) 469 Jay Hook (R/G)
507 Roland Sheldon (Y/R) 478 Paul Brown (R/Y)
510 Ken McBride (B/Y) 490 Willie McCovey (B/R)
511 Charlie Neal (B/Y) 462 Wally Post (B/R)

[Cliff Bowman]

After all of the fantastic work Kevvyg1026 did on figuring out the 1963 Topps 5th Series A and B sheets I figured I would show the cards themselves on the sheets. This is the top half of the Slit A sheet.

[Cliff Bowman]

This is the bottom half of the 1963 Topps 5th Series Slit A sheet.