Albert Pujols

[ClementeFanOh]

Another tortured, passive- aggressive (or maybe, just plain aggressive) slam from the all knowing Stache! Since you know everything, Stache, I guess the debate is over on Albert Pujols...
Except it isn't. First of all, he's a "dumpster fire" who is "embarrassing himself"- but you "really like" him? Strange way to express admiration...
Here's a novel approach. Since a relatively quiet guy who has had a storied career just achieved a major milestone, how about we enjoy it (or merely acknowledge it, for Heaven's sake) rather than flex our keyboard muscles tearing him down? Jeesh. News flash for the Stache- LOTS of wonderful players deteriorate over time. Did you truly expect him to maintain his StL pace with the Angels? If he had done so, he'd have 800+ home runs and 2500+ RBI (and yes, I'm rounding off- you can do the O/C math). I'm sure Pujols is devastated that he didn't meet your statistical models.
When Pujols retires, he'll have 660+ HR, well over 3000 hits, 2000+ RBI, and a career batting average right around .300. So, it's accurate to say he IS one of the all time greats, not merely that he "was on his way to becoming" one.
I'll close by saying I'm no fan of StL or the Angels, but I can certainly recognize a deserving first ballot HOF player when I see one. Trent King

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by clementefanoh

another tortured, passive- aggressive (or maybe, just plain aggressive) slam from the all knowing stache! Since you know everything, stache, i guess the debate is over on albert pujols...
Except it isn't. First of all, he's a "dumpster fire" who is "embarrassing himself"- but you "really like" him? Strange way to express admiration...
Here's a novel approach. Since a relatively quiet guy who has had a storied career just achieved a major milestone, how about we enjoy it (or merely acknowledge it, for heaven's sake) rather than flex our keyboard muscles tearing him down? Jeesh. News flash for the stache- lots of wonderful players deteriorate over time. Did you truly expect him to maintain his stl pace with the angels? If he had done so, he'd have 800+ home runs and 2500+ rbi (and yes, i'm rounding off- you can do the o/c math). I'm sure pujols is devastated that he didn't meet your statistical models.
When pujols retires, he'll have 660+ hr, well over 3000 hits, 2000+ rbi, and a career batting average right around .300. So, it's accurate to say he is one of the all time greats, not merely that he "was on his way to becoming" one.
I'll close by saying i'm no fan of stl or the angels, but i can certainly recognize a deserving first ballot hof player when i see one. Trent king

a huge +1

[Mike D.]

Can’t blame a guy for playing out his agreed upon contract, especially considering how underpaid players are in the first 6 years of their careers. Always amazed how people side with the billionaire owners over the millionaire players.

Nobody seems to be calling for contract renegotiations when a player outperforms their contract. Those are just “team friendly” and “good business”.

The Angels could have released Pujols at any point. The fact that they haven’t shows they still think he’s worth the roster spot.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Its these moments im glad the baseball season was not canceled. Salvages the stats for the counting stats records and also provides some interesting yearly/daily achievements.

Funny we should blast all the people and critics who said should cancel the season. Tons of jobs saved and helps economy yet not a peep of people saying they were WRONG. If players got sick and died, you would of heard no end of 'told you so'

Easy to take a position that if you are wrong nobody criticizes you. Its hard to take a position when you will be criticized immensely if wrong. Please remember that on the next big decision when there are 2 sides.

The easy side should get very little credit for being right when no criticism when wrong.

[Jim65]

Many great players hang on way past their prime. If Pujols still wants to play and enjoys playing while making a tremendous amount of money to do so, who is anyone to tell him that he shouldn't?

[mouschi]

I love Pujols for the player and person he is. It'll be sad when he hangs it up! I agree that he isn't producing like he was, but we only get special players for a short amount of time. It will be a sad day in baseball when he retires.

[timber63401]

0 percent of people on here would hang it up if there were in his shoes playing a game making millions and millions of dollars. The day he signed everyone with half a brain knew he wouldnt be worth what they were paying him the last 5 years or so of his contract. Blame the Angles not Pujols.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Another tortured, passive- aggressive (or maybe, just plain aggressive) slam from the all knowing Stache! Since you know everything, Stache, I guess the debate is over on Albert Pujols...
Except it isn't. First of all, he's a "dumpster fire" who is "embarrassing himself"- but you "really like" him? Strange way to express admiration...
Here's a novel approach. Since a relatively quiet guy who has had a storied career just achieved a major milestone, how about we enjoy it (or merely acknowledge it, for Heaven's sake) rather than flex our keyboard muscles tearing him down? Jeesh. News flash for the Stache- LOTS of wonderful players deteriorate over time. Did you truly expect him to maintain his StL pace with the Angels? If he had done so, he'd have 800+ home runs and 2500+ RBI (and yes, I'm rounding off- you can do the O/C math). I'm sure Pujols is devastated that he didn't meet your statistical models.
When Pujols retires, he'll have 660+ HR, well over 3000 hits, 2000+ RBI, and a career batting average right around .300. So, it's accurate to say he IS one of the all time greats, not merely that he "was on his way to becoming" one.
I'll close by saying I'm no fan of StL or the Angels, but I can certainly recognize a deserving first ballot HOF player when I see one. Trent King

This

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Another tortured, passive- aggressive (or maybe, just plain aggressive) slam from the all knowing Stache! Since you know everything, Stache, I guess the debate is over on Albert Pujols...
Except it isn't. First of all, he's a "dumpster fire" who is "embarrassing himself"- but you "really like" him? Strange way to express admiration...
Here's a novel approach. Since a relatively quiet guy who has had a storied career just achieved a major milestone, how about we enjoy it (or merely acknowledge it, for Heaven's sake) rather than flex our keyboard muscles tearing him down? Jeesh. News flash for the Stache- LOTS of wonderful players deteriorate over time. Did you truly expect him to maintain his StL pace with the Angels? If he had done so, he'd have 800+ home runs and 2500+ RBI (and yes, I'm rounding off- you can do the O/C math). I'm sure Pujols is devastated that he didn't meet your statistical models.
When Pujols retires, he'll have 660+ HR, well over 3000 hits, 2000+ RBI, and a career batting average right around .300. So, it's accurate to say he IS one of the all time greats, not merely that he "was on his way to becoming" one.
I'll close by saying I'm no fan of StL or the Angels, but I can certainly recognize a deserving first ballot HOF player when I see one. Trent King

How, exactly, is it tortured? The statistical evidence is undeniable. I’m sorry if a bit of perspective being presented while everybody is fawning over him upsets you.

He was absolutely an all-time great as a Cardinal. A player’s career is judged in its entirety, and Albert’s statistics have fallen considerably since his move to the AL. The second half of his career-and his time in an Angels uniform represents about 40% of his career, to date-has been an utter disappointment. He was at least a productive player the first half of his run as an Angel-not the player he once was, but he could still produce a positive effect for his team.

That reality is long over, to the point where he is hurting his team, and embarrassing himself.

In 2017, his OPS+ was 80. As an offensive player, he was 20% below league average. As a whole player, he was worth -1.9 WAR. And the team paid him $26 million for the privilege of penciling a below replacement level player into the lineup.

In 2018, his OPS+ was 91, and he rebounded slightly to be worth 0.8 WAR. For $27 million, they got a substitute level player.

In 2019, his OPS+ was 92. He was worth 0.5 WAR for $28 million.

This year, he’s getting paid $29 million, and has been worth 0.3 WAR.

The fact that “lots of other players deteriorate over time” and keep playing doesn’t make this right. They weren’t right to do it, and neither is Pujols.

When a player continues taking the field every day, and they are a detriment to the team, that is selfish. I still like Pujols (and here’s a novel concept, ClementeFanOh: it is possible to criticize a player, and still like them). Yes, I absolutely think he is being selfish now. Continuing on in pursuit of some records, is motivated by vanity.

What else is he doing? Don’t tell me that Albert has dreams of reaching the World Series one more time, because this team, at 22-30, isn’t sniffing the playoffs. Unless Albert has the worst financial planner in history, he doesn’t need the money. He’s not trying to secure a spot in the Hall of Fame. That’s been done. So why is he playing still? And don’t give me some saccharine-coated “he’s playing for love of the game” bullshit. I doubt very much that Albert enjoys not being able to run. I doubt that Albert, who until recently was a career .300 hitter, enjoys hitting a combined .243 over the last four years, and having a .293 OBP over that span. Albert Pujols played the game at the highest level. Now he’s a shadow of his former self. Every step is painful. He runs slower than I do, now.

What’s his motivation to keep playing if not the pursuit of more records? Forget making the playoffs. It isn’t even about the Angels winning. If he wanted the Angels to win, the first thing he could do to help them do exactly that would be to retire.

Vanity. Staying in the spotlight. Hanging on to the last vestiges of his career, and a game that has so clearly passed him bye. It sucks that he’s suffered the injuries he has. I wish he’d stayed healthy. He was a lot of fun to watch. But now he’s Mickey Mantle at the end, when Mick winced every tine he swung the bat.

As to the Angels not releasing him, you’re right. They could. They should. They should have a few years ago. Maybe the fact that they haven’t is further evidence of why they haven’t made the playoffs once in the last five years, and only one time in the last decade, a 3-0 sweep at the hands of the Royals. The last time the Angels won so much as a single playoff game was in 2009.

The team is horribly managed. They don’t have the intestinal fortitude to cut “a legend”.

“Oh, the fans will boo us if we can the great Albert.”

I’m pretty sure they’re already booing because your team sucks. If you release him, and put a younger, more talented player in his place, maybe the team will improve? They have inarguably the best player in the game in Mike Trout. They are wasting the prime of his career with this ridiculous sentimentality. This game is about winning, and if the owners of the Angels don’t have the stones to do what is necessary, then they should sell. They owe it to their fans. Instead, Angels fans watch the team miss the playoffs year after year. The team spent over $161 million last year, and ended up 72-90.

I will cheer when Albert Pujols goes into Cooperstown. He has been a fantastic player. He’s never said an unkind word about anyone. Never brought dishonor on himself off the field. By all accounts, he’s a good man. And yes, again, it is possible to really like a player, and yet criticize them when they hang on too long. Life is not black and white, where you either like someone, or don’t. But I’m not going to be among the legion of baseball fans who coddle him.

“Oh, congratulations on passing Willie Mays.”

If I could talk to him, I would ask him, “what’s more important? Climbing the all-time charts, and maybe becoming #1 all-time in RBI, or bowing out gracefully?”

You don’t like my position? Fine. I’m cool with that. I’m not going to bite my tongue because you don’t agree. And here’s a news flash, ClementeFanOh: neither I, or my posts, are “tortured”. I am a very happy individual. I don’t have some secret vendetta against Albert, or any other player I say a critical word about. I call it like I see it, and that’s what a discussion forum is for.

I criticized Derek Jeter for doing the exact same thing, and I was roasted by Yankee fans for doing so. Jeter was pretty awful at the end of his career (yet still better than Pujols), and the whole “farewell tour” that was his last season in the Yankee pinstripes was such ego stroking bullshit.

You know who I respect for the way he went out? Ted Williams. He hit the home run in his last at bat at Fenway, and he ran into the dugout at the end of the game, and drove away. He didn’t come out and tip his cap, fundamentally changing who he’d been since his second season, because of cheap sentimentality.

Ted played one last season, took a massive pay cut because he underperformed the year before by his standards (because of a nerve issue in his neck), and in that last season, he was fantastic. You don’t think Ted could have held on a few more years to get the 346 hits he needed for 3,000? He OPSd 1.096 at age 41. He didn’t need to clear some mythical plateau to certify his greatness. The man knew it was time, and bowed out gracefully.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

The statistical evidence is undeniable.

That reality is long over, to the point where he is hurting his team, and embarrassing himself.

In 2017, his OPS+ was 80. As an offensive player, he was 20% below league average. As a whole player, he was worth -1.9 WAR. And the team paid him $26 million for the privilege of penciling a below replacement level player into the lineup.

In 2018, his OPS+ was 91, and he rebounded slightly to be worth 0.8 WAR. For $27 million, they got a substitute level player.

In 2019, his OPS+ was 92. He was worth 0.5 WAR for $28 million.

This year, he’s getting paid $29 million, and has been worth 0.3 WAR.

The fact that “lots of other players deteriorate over time” and keep playing doesn’t make this right. They weren’t right to do it, and neither is Pujols.

When a player continues taking the field every day, and they are a detriment to the team, that is selfish. I still like Pujols (and here’s a novel concept, ClementeFanOh: it is possible to criticize a player, and still like them). Yes, I absolutely think he is being selfish now. Continuing on in pursuit of some records, is motivated by vanity.

What else is he doing? Don’t tell me that Albert has dreams of reaching the World Series one more time, because this team, at 22-30, isn’t sniffing the playoffs. Unless Albert has the worst financial planner in history, he doesn’t need the money. He’s not trying to secure a spot in the Hall of Fame. That’s been done. So why is he playing still? And don’t give me some saccharine-coated “he’s playing for love of the game” bullshit. I doubt very much that Albert enjoys not being able to run. I doubt that Albert, who until recently was a career .300 hitter, enjoys hitting a combined .243 over the last four years, and having a .293 OBP over that span. Albert Pujols played the game at the highest level. Now he’s a shadow of his former self. Every step is painful. He runs slower than I do, now.

This is just not true. You say the evidence is undeniable and post evidence that refutes your opinion. Only one time in the last 4 years has Pujols had a negative effect on the Angels.

When a player continues to take the field, he is doing his job. I think you fail to realize how things work. Pujols doesn't fill out the lineup card, the manager does. The manager's job is to put the best team on the field and that includes Pujols in his opinion. If you disagree, try getting the job.

Your anger is misplaced. The only blame is the Angels front office who have drafted poorly, traded poorly and done a bad job at signing free agents. So their best lineup includes Pujols.

The only BS is your claim that Pujols should retire. He signed a contract with the Angels and it is both parties duty to honor the contract. The Angels can not put him on the roster or in the lineup if they choose. If someone sold you a card too cheap and then decided to back out and sell the card for more after the deal was agreed upon and you paid, you would be upset. No doubt the Angels made a bad deal, they are still living up to their end as is Pujols.

[ClementeFanOh]

STACHE- You really should condense your replies. The more nonsense you spew, the easier it is to eviscerate you:

1) Your "perspective" is askew. You wrote a manifesto tearing down the career of a FIRST BALLOT lock to the Hall of Fame. Of course you are free to have opinions. You can believe that the moon landings were fake, that the earth is flat, and that Thor is alive and living in Norway- they are all wrong and so are you for the approach you took. It's senseless and indefensible, and you were pounded by lots of folks on this site, not just me.

2) For the record, "tortured" was a reference to your argument, not your rosy personality. (Although I don't believe for one second you are "happy." You are probably one of those guys who eats a great meal at a high end steak house, and feels compelled to whine about the parking just to be contrary).

3) I hope you can take your Ted Williams life- size mannequin out for a nice picnic lunch tomorrow. You can bitch to him about Albert Pujols as a conversation starter!

[FrankWakefield]

I usually struggle with staying on point...

I'm a Cardinals fan. As much as I wish Albert had stayed in St Louis, the Cards were more competitive by putting the money that would have gone to Albert instead toward other players, younger players. I hope Pujols plays a couple of more seasons. And I hope he plays well.

This thread was supposed to be about AP ballcards, although most of us here are more interested in older cards.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1600567087

Here are 58 cards of the 2004 Topps cards that are numbered xxxx/1955. I think I have a couple of more somewhere, and I think I have one or two of the xxx/555 cards. I got one of the 1955 cards off of eBay in 2004, and then saw another, and I started bidding on them if they weren't too much (that's arbitrary, isn't it). I first thought about trying to get 1% of the cards, I'm almost to or barely past 3% now.

There was a thread some time ago about those of us who had a bunch of one card, and I posted some of these Pujols cards then. I think immediately after that, a fellow net54 guy whom I'd gotten slightly crossways with (that doesn't narrow it down much) bid on one of these that was on eBay... I think he and I went back and forth on it, and with not much time to go I quit bidding and he won it. He didn't want it, he was just trying to run up the price on me. I don't try for every one of these. I lost on one today.

Mr. Pujols... he is past his prime and he is still playing. Playing better than any of us would today. He does lots of funding for charities back home in the Dominican Republic, and some here in that States. He'd have less money for that had he retired at the peak of his prime.

We would have an altered reality of baseball records and stats if everyone quit while in their prime. I'm glad Albert is still swinging a baseball bat.

And as for Ted Williams... maybe he shoulda kept driving away from baseball instead of becoming a manager. Did he manage long enough to reach his prime doing that?

I really like that original edition of The Historical Basaball Abstract. Thank you Mr. Bill James for that book. Those two pages about Ed Reulbach remain priceless. My recollection is that Mr. James is hashing out who is the greatest player at every position... and after a bit of verbal gnashing of teeth and equivicating, he finally concludes that Ted Williams was among the greatest of hitters, a great player, and the second best left fielder ever. I believe he settled on that Cardinal who wore #6 to have been the greatest left fielder.

Keep playing, Mr. Pujols, and put that barrel on that ball.

[FrankWakefield]

I know I didn't link that photo correctly. It wasn't intentional. It was due to forgetfulness, lack of experience, being a bit of a dinosaur, being a bit of a Luddite. I'll fix it if someone clearly and succinctly sends me a list of steps to accomplish that.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

How, exactly, is it tortured? The statistical evidence is undeniable. I’m sorry if a bit of perspective being presented while everybody is fawning over him upsets you.

He was absolutely an all-time great as a Cardinal. A player’s career is judged in its entirety, and Albert’s statistics have fallen considerably since his move to the AL. The second half of his career-and his time in an Angels uniform represents about 40% of his career, to date-has been an utter disappointment. He was at least a productive player the first half of his run as an Angel-not the player he once was, but he could still produce a positive effect for his team.

That reality is long over, to the point where he is hurting his team, and embarrassing himself.

In 2017, his OPS+ was 80. As an offensive player, he was 20% below league average. As a whole player, he was worth -1.9 WAR. And the team paid him $26 million for the privilege of penciling a below replacement level player into the lineup.

In 2018, his OPS+ was 91, and he rebounded slightly to be worth 0.8 WAR. For $27 million, they got a substitute level player.

In 2019, his OPS+ was 92. He was worth 0.5 WAR for $28 million.

This year, he’s getting paid $29 million, and has been worth 0.3 WAR.

The fact that “lots of other players deteriorate over time” and keep playing doesn’t make this right. They weren’t right to do it, and neither is Pujols.

When a player continues taking the field every day, and they are a detriment to the team, that is selfish. I still like Pujols (and here’s a novel concept, ClementeFanOh: it is possible to criticize a player, and still like them). Yes, I absolutely think he is being selfish now. Continuing on in pursuit of some records, is motivated by vanity.

What else is he doing? Don’t tell me that Albert has dreams of reaching the World Series one more time, because this team, at 22-30, isn’t sniffing the playoffs. Unless Albert has the worst financial planner in history, he doesn’t need the money. He’s not trying to secure a spot in the Hall of Fame. That’s been done. So why is he playing still? And don’t give me some saccharine-coated “he’s playing for love of the game” bullshit. I doubt very much that Albert enjoys not being able to run. I doubt that Albert, who until recently was a career .300 hitter, enjoys hitting a combined .243 over the last four years, and having a .293 OBP over that span. Albert Pujols played the game at the highest level. Now he’s a shadow of his former self. Every step is painful. He runs slower than I do, now.

Sure seems like a good portion of your beef with Pujols is his salary. His salary is irrelevant. That's a concern for management not fans. And, despite your critique, he's still only been a negative WAR player once in his entire career.

[Ricky]

Wait... Thor is not alive and living in Norway??