Automated Card Grading - Surface

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Imagine now that the machines become predominant graders of cards, and someone cracks out a card and shows the evaluation was incorrect for flawed data or programming....2 years AFTER first submissions have been taken and millions of graded cards later.

That's one reason I'm asking so many questions now. If they just start grading without having a finely tuned system, the grades will be inadequate. Consistency is required of a grading company or tool.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by swarmee

That's one reason I'm asking so many questions now. If they just start grading without having a finely tuned system, the grades will be inadequate. Consistency is required of a grading company or tool.

I believe the current "Human" process of grading a card involves the opinions from several (if not many) pairs of eyes before the final grade is actually assigned and I don't anticipate that AI will (or can) completely eliminate the "human"factor.

However - I do believe that this "eGrade" could become an extremely useful tool in expediting the entire process as the intermediate sets of eyes could be completely eliminated where each card is initially assigned an AI grade and then it would need to pass thru a final "human" evaluation process (with just a few sets of highly qualified eyes) before being assigned the final "Certified Grade" and then slabbed and returned to the customer.

I see this as a huge move towards completely eliminating the 6-12 month turnaround times that we currently enjoy.

Best of Luck in your endeavors -

[kevinlenane]

For sure nothing is totally "perfect" when it comes to grading - the concern about the machine learning viral error idea - isn't exactly how it works. We actually have 3 distinct human inputs and several more classes of machine inputs all providing grades on the same sample cards so in theory over time any nuance gets built in to the best average grade per category. We are planning on having the proof of concept ready to grade several vintage wax breaks live on camera for the Beckett Industry Summit - and ill fire out the test version here if folks want to give feedback on it technically (technically meaning as it relates to the grade evaluation not coding). I want to incorporate as much feedback as possible amongst the group here for the vintage grading in particular as there is a lot of nuance to various set/year pairs that I feel should be included over time. My goal here is to provide an instant service that is transparent provides all the available raw data that make up and produce the various numbers.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

We are planning on having the proof of concept ready to grade several vintage wax breaks live on camera for the Beckett Industry Summit - and ill fire out the test version here if folks want to give feedback on it technically

I'd definitely be interested in seeing it and providing feedback. I think your demo concept is really interesting, especially since the Beckett Summits hosted a ton of verified trimmers over the years.

[Throttlesteer]

I think the idea is cool and it certainly will help with spotting alterations and doctoring. But at some point, I find myself shaking my head at the level of technology being applied to assess something far beyond the human eye or even a loupe. I totally understand the monetary concerns with today's "market". But I still struggle internally with applying micron measurements and machine learning to pieces of cardboard. I know, it's my issue.

Good luck with the company!

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

I think the idea is cool and it certainly will help with spotting alterations and doctoring. But at some point, I find myself shaking my head at the level of technology being applied to assess something far beyond the human eye or even a loupe. I totally understand the monetary concerns with today's "market". But I still struggle internally with applying micron measurements and machine learning to pieces of cardboard. I know, it's my issue.

Good luck with the company!

You are not alone.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I know this thread is about the card's surface, but I have a question about the card's size. How does it know the difference between a factory and non-factory cut? Some cards are just naturally cut smaller from the factory, so can it distinguish the difference between a card that was cut short at the factory to a card that was trimmed?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by kevinlenane

For sure nothing is totally "perfect" when it comes to grading - the concern about the machine learning viral error idea - isn't exactly how it works. We actually have 3 distinct human inputs and several more classes of machine inputs all providing grades on the same sample cards so in theory over time any nuance gets built in to the best average grade per category. We are planning on having the proof of concept ready to grade several vintage wax breaks live on camera for the Beckett Industry Summit - and ill fire out the test version here if folks want to give feedback on it technically (technically meaning as it relates to the grade evaluation not coding). I want to incorporate as much feedback as possible amongst the group here for the vintage grading in particular as there is a lot of nuance to various set/year pairs that I feel should be included over time. My goal here is to provide an instant service that is transparent provides all the available raw data that make up and produce the various numbers.

I wouldn't mind giving it a try either. I can run some peculiar stuff past it, and see what it does.

What does it run on?

[Case12]

I have been consulting a start up that is patenting 3D (multiple image sensors) and movement - in this case, converting unknown sign-language and unknown languages. Bias is a big issue for language. For a fixed example, such as a card, muliple sensor can also be used to answer some of these questions. At the beginning, human verification will be required, with a common/or agreed rules - then the learning with take over this very quickly. I am really, really excited to see this applied to autographs, where often the learning can come from direct feedback of the signer (in some cases). This is awesome...and very doable (no magic...the real deal).

[swarmee]

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...e-4-grades-off
Interesting case study... most likely the 4s and 5s have spider wrinkles or surface creases only seen at specific angles/lighting.

[JollyElm]

There is another wrinkle to add to the mix. Would this system be able to detect the differences between a card that was actually printed on the lighter side (from a dearth of certain colors of ink at the factory) and one that has spent time in the sun and faded?

Here's an example of what I'm talking about...

1969topps567three.jpg

The top two look faded, but considering their coloring is identical (both were submitted by me and weren't left out in the sun or anything), they actually came out of the factory that way, so PSA graded them accordingly (Although, perhaps the 6 was graded accurately by one grader, and a different grader hammered the no creases/wrinkles 4 for being 'faded'?? Who knows.).