Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by steve B

The when and why of an alteration don't matter. That the alteration did happen does.

Old cards, yes, I'm very confident I could spot nearly all alterations.
There are people skilled enough that their work would be very hard to detect. The point would be that PSA has multiple people, some very experienced. They also supposedly have a very nice piece of equipment that can allow viewing the card under various forms of light shown from different angles. Since it costs about 60K I don't have one. Maybe I should ask for theirs, since they don't seem to use it.

It's not about making perfect the enemy of good. It's about a company that calls themselves experts living up to their own claims. And taking responsibility for their mistakes instead of reholdering them with new serial numbers and denying they were wrong even when shown photos of the same card before and after altering. (SGC too. And probably Beckett)

Do I have graded cards? -Yes, from all three major companies, and a couple others.
have I had my own cards graded? - Yes, all by SGC.
Did I miss things about any of those? -Yes, for a variety of reasons. Only one alteration, which was a surprise as I bought the card around 1978-80 from a reputable dealer. Another was a last minute choice to get to the number of cards for a special. far too hasty, just glanced and said "oh ok, that's a nice one"
But, I'm not being paid to spot those things, the grading companies are.

On older cards I'm very confident, slightly less so on newer cards. The size tolerances are a misleading thing for many sets. It really depends on how they were cut.
A lot of modern cards are actually die cut and should have no variance in size.
Some sets will be hellish for grading companies in the future, most modern Gypsy Queens were apparently die cut in panels then cut in a paper cutter the rest of the way. So right out of the pack they have two different proper edge qualities on the same card. As for as I know, nobody has cataloged that in any way. I collected them until a couple years ago, and haven't even tried yet (Or completed the sets.) How will they handle it when every card in the set appears trimmed?
The sheer number of uncataloged oddities that affect entire modern sets or large portions of sets is amazing.

If I had that sort of money, yes, I'd put up my own cash against yours on pretty much any card from before about 1992. And on many cards made after that.

Steve, I think you're missing my point....I'm not questioning your hobby knowledge or ability to detect many alterations, though I think you underestimate the divergence of opinion to yours when doing so.
I just don't expect a fleet of Steve B's working for $12/hr in the grading offices.

I think the issue at hand is your expectation of what a grading company is, what it promises or doesn't, and whether it is beholden to meet particular expectations.

I own a 2014 Mercedes E350. When I get it serviced, the likelihood is that the tech who runs diagnostics knows how to use the machine that runs the testing and has a bare minimum of tools knowledge. For most work in and out of the Mercedes service shop it is sufficient to get him round most issues. Within the shop there will be a couple more skilled mechanics, and hopefully at the dealership at least one master mechanic. Each draws different wages, and when different mechanical issues arise expertise up the line can be drawn.

MY expectation of a grading company is of an entry level tech who knows how to use the basic machines, applies a standard set of testing to maintain my car, and keep me moving on my way.
YOUR expectation of a grading company is for master mechanics versed heavily in how the vehicle has been built and operates to give care to your 2014 E350 and to never miss what should be obvious with all that accumulated industry lore.

I look for true hobby knowledge here and amongst friends who know more about cards than most. They have given considerable years and innumerable hours to the pursuit because of love and passion for the hobby.

I look to grading companies to do some basic assessment so that I am not shocked or disappointed when a card arrives, ostensibly in a condition not as the seller has described. The grading company steps in between us and applies 10 minutes max of work into investigating just a few of the most important criteria, but hopefully with enough accuracy to grease the trade.

It's not like I don't see the problems you do.
It's just that I look at the volume, the time alloted, the fee associated, the overall experience, and feel it approximates what I expect.
I hate the mistakes, abhor the dishonesty that is suggested to be happening between some companies involved, and enjoy justice being meted out.

But I don't think the whole hobby is f#*@+d because of grading, or that the problems are so overwhelming I can't go about my own collecting.

Eat at enough Subways and someone will make you a sandwich that makes you sick. Overall, the company puts a lot of food in peoples stomaches at reasonable prices so they're doing their job OK....

That's how I feel about grading. It's mostly doing its job IMO.

SGC/Beckett/PSA, yes they likely talk up their expertise to give confidence to their customers. That doesn't bother me too much.

What each company really needs is a small division called 'Misses', where any problem card/problem assessment reaches a more seasoned tech who has a commitment to correcting the issue, and for the companies to be ok with transparency around those issues. There could even be a section of their websites just for that, illustrating in large pic format and with significant description the issues identified with the card that were originally missed, and for it to be seen as an educational tool for the hobby.

Problem is this country is such a litigous one, even here on this forum you find such immature responses where tar and feather is demanded and wholesale badmouthing of grading occurs with the seeming desire to just bring the whole thing down.....
These companies are better off financially just ignoring or downplaying the failure rate because it's clientele isn't mature enough to accept that perfection is unattainable and you get what you pay for.

I'm all for you starting up your own grading company Steve, problem will lie in who you employ.