Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is another strawman. I have never excluded Koufax's first 7 years from my arguments. His career numbers, ERA, WHIP and FIP are better than any other lefty other than Kershaw. Koufax's postseason gives him the advantage there. Changing the argument and arguing something different is the definition of a strawman and has been done throughout this thread by the anti-Koufax group.

False. We haven't changed any argument. From the get-go, the argument from the anti-Koufax crowd - if you want to call us that - is that his severe home/road splits, specifically during his 1962/3 - 66 stretch, work against him, same as they do for Larry Walker, Jim Rice, Chuck Klein, et al.

[Flintboy]

Surprises me that Lolich isn’t mentioned more often. He along with Kaline were the team leaders on the Tigers for many years. I know he isn’t in the Koufax, Carlton, Johnson, etc discussion......but I know I could make a very strong case to have him in the HOF rather then some other recently voted in players.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Surprises me that Lolich isn’t mentioned more often. He along with Kaline were the team leaders on the Tigers for many years. I know he isn’t in the Koufax, Carlton, Johnson, etc discussion......but I know I could make a very strong case to have him in the HOF rather then some other recently voted in players.

His career ERA being the league average (104 ERA+), plus leading the league in more negative things than positive things is a hard case to overcome. We're getting pretty far down the list to get to Lolich.

[G1911]

If we now want to make the argument that Koufax is best because his ERA, FIP and WHIP for a career are lower than the other candidates (Context really seems to be missing), he still loses. Jack Pfeister has the lowest career ERA of a left hander. His WHIP and FIP is better than Koufax too. If the time and place and context and longevity don't matter, then why isn't he the greatest ever? Using the "logic" used in the arguments for Koufax, Koufax still doesn't come out on top. Other pitchers have had equal or better seasons, other pitchers have anecdotes from guys they played against, others have better stats even context is stripped away, and if you ignore longevity, it gets even more absurd with the guys you can proclaim #1 using the same argument made for Koufax.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by G1911

If we now want to make the argument that Koufax is best because his ERA, FIP and WHIP for a career are lower than the other candidates (Context really seems to be missing), he still loses. Jack Pfeister has the lowest career ERA of a left hander. His WHIP and FIP is better than Koufax too. If the time and place and context and longevity don't matter, then why isn't he the greatest ever? Using the "logic" used in the arguments for Koufax, Koufax still doesn't come out on top. Other pitchers have had equal or better seasons, other pitchers have anecdotes from guys they played against, others have better stats even context is stripped away, and if you ignore longevity, it gets even more absurd with the guys you can proclaim #1 using the same argument made for Koufax.

You are right Pfeister is better. I would rather have Pfeister.over Koufax any day

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

False. We haven't changed any argument. From the get-go, the argument from the anti-Koufax crowd - if you want to call us that - is that his severe home/road splits, specifically during his 1962/3 - 66 stretch, work against him, same as they do for Larry Walker, Jim Rice, Chuck Klein, et al.

This is a circular argument. A logical falacy. It's not a valid argument. Dodger Stadium has an average park factor of 95. That means that Koufax benefited 5% from pitching there. 5% is all. The reason he was so good in Dodger Stadium is because he is the best lefty of all time. Dodger Stadium's park factor is in line with other pitchers parks. The Astrodome averaged 94. Candlestick Park averaged 97. Why couldn't Marichal come within 2% of Koufax's home ERA? Or any Astros pitcher match it?

Now let's look at hitters parks. The "Launching Pad" in Atlanta had an average park factor of 105 with a high of 114. So, a hitter in Atlanta got the same bonus that a pitcher did in Dodger Stadium. The Baker Bowl was a little more extreme. From 1921-1937 it averaged 112 with a high of 116. The Rockies average park factor for their entire history...118 with a high of 128. I will let you figure out Fenway, but it is going to be close to 105, the best season was 112. I find it a little hypocritical that you mention Jim Rice. Sure he got a boost from the Green Monster being 310 feet in LF. Why doesn't Koufax get the same respect for pitching 4 seasons with a LF screen 251 feet in LF?

A normal park factor is 100. +/- 5% is a normal range. Denver is way outside of any normal range. That none of the parks in the discussion have had a single season what Denver averages is why home/road spits matter for Rockies players. For Koufax, it is a very minor factor.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by rats60

This is a circular argument. A logical falacy. It's not a valid argument. Dodger Stadium has an average park factor of 95. That means that Koufax benefited 5% from pitching there. 5% is all. The reason he was so good in Dodger Stadium is because he is the best lefty of all time. Dodger Stadium's park factor is in line with other pitchers parks. The Astrodome averaged 94. Candlestick Park averaged 97. Why couldn't Marichal come within 2% of Koufax's home ERA? Or any Astros pitcher match it?

Now let's look at hitters parks. The "Launching Pad" in Atlanta had an average park factor of 105 with a high of 114. So, a hitter in Atlanta got the same bonus that a pitcher did in Dodger Stadium. The Baker Bowl was a little more extreme. From 1921-1937 it averaged 112 with a high of 116. The Rockies average park factor for their entire history...118 with a high of 128. I will let you figure out Fenway, but it is going to be close to 105, the best season was 112. I find it a little hypocritical that you mention Jim Rice. Sure he got a boost from the Green Monster being 310 feet in LF. Why doesn't Koufax get the same respect for pitching 4 seasons with a LF screen 251 feet in LF?

A normal park factor is 100. +/- 5% is a normal range. Denver is way outside of any normal range. That none of the parks in the discussion have had a single season what Denver averages is why home/road spits matter for Rockies players. For Koufax, it is a very minor factor.

So wait, now Park Factor is a legit stat? I'm having a hard time keeping up with you. You told me the only stats that mattered, but didn't respond when others pointed out that those specific stats could be used show others as better than Koufax, like bringing up ERA+ to use against Marichal but ignoring it with Grove.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

So wait, now Park Factor is a legit stat? I'm having a hard time keeping up with you. You told me the only stats that mattered, but didn't respond when others pointed out that those specific stats could be used show others as better than Koufax, like bringing up ERA+ to use against Marichal but ignoring it with Grove.

You must not have read my post. Park factor isn't a significant factor. I also never used ERA+ against Marichal, I was giving another poster the benfit of the doubt who was using it, but it is seriously flawed. Its fatal flaw is the assumption that pitching is equal from one era to another which it clearly isn't. People picking deadball era pitchers to compare to Koufax doesn't need a response. I addressed that early in the thread and it should be obvious to any baseball fan why.

[HRBAKER]

I love these type of threads. Throw out a question with no answer and here comes the passion. I always learn a lot.

[aro13]

Brian - Historic Newspapers -

Very well thought out posts. Appreciate both the statistical analysis and the physical points. Unfortunately, the physical stature of an individual is becoming more and more sought out every year in athletics.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

You must not have read my post. Park factor isn't a significant factor. I also never used ERA+ against Marichal, I was giving another poster the benfit of the doubt who was using it, but it is seriously flawed. Its fatal flaw is the assumption that pitching is equal from one era to another which it clearly isn't. People picking deadball era pitchers to compare to Koufax doesn't need a response. I addressed that early in the thread and it should be obvious to any baseball fan why.

ERA+ makes no assumption about eras. People who misuse it do that. ERA+ *only* measures a pitcher against his yearly contemporaries. It's a measure of how great he is relative to his competition.

[HistoricNewspapers]

I also want to point out that Randy Johnson injuries also forced him to miss most of two seasons in the middle of his prime when he won his FIVE CY Youngs and nearly FOUR more.

He also missed most of another season near the end of his career when he was averaging 11.4 K per nine innings.

He also had to retire earlier than his stuff dictated due to injury. He had more years left as he was averaging 8.1 K per nine innings in his last season...and pitching through pain costing him effectiveness as well.

SO if Koufax is getting credit for injuries...don't forget to give that to Randy Johnson as well.

It cost Johnson the all time strikeout record.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by HistoricNewspapers

I also want to point out that Randy Johnson injuries also forced him to miss most of two seasons in the middle of his prime when he won his FIVE CY Youngs and nearly FOUR more.

He also missed most of another season near the end of his career when he was averaging 11.4 K per nine innings.

He also had to retire earlier than his stuff dictated due to injury. He had more years left as he was averaging 8.1 K per nine innings in his last season...and pitching through pain costing him effectiveness as well.

SO if Koufax is getting credit for injuries...don't forget to give that to Randy Johnson as well.

It cost Johnson the all time strikeout record.

Eh, he was still 900 Ks short of the record after pitching to 45. He would have needed another 3 full seasons of top-flight effectiveness to get there and he didn't miss that much time.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

Why doesn't Koufax get the same respect for pitching 4 seasons with a LF screen 251 feet in LF?

If you go back and look over my posts, I specifically talked about Koufax's four seasons at the Coliseum. Excluded them from stats, in fact. However, had people saying "park doesn't matter" (paraphrase) when it come to explaining Koufax's greatness at Dodger Stadium but wanted to say that the Coliseum hurt Koufax. You can't have it both ways. Either the stadium matters or it doesn't.

Originally Posted by rats60

A normal park factor is 100. +/- 5% is a normal range. Denver is way outside of any normal range. That none of the parks in the discussion have had a single season what Denver averages is why home/road spits matter for Rockies players. For Koufax, it is a very minor factor.

If it was such a minor factor, Koufax wouldn't have average well over double outside of Dodger Stadium what he averaged inside it. If it didn't matter, he wouldn't have an ERA over 3.50 at half the stadiums where he pitched 6 or more times.