Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I know that Whitey Ford wouldn't be everyone's 2nd greatest lefties. But there are loads of stats that back up Whitey being far better than Johnson.

I suppose it depends on the criteria you use. Strikeouts or absolute wins are great stats but they I'd argue that wins % is the better stat here.

At .690 Ford has the best winning percentage of any lefty in history. I'd argue that winning games is THE most important stat.

Ford's stats would have been even better but Casey Stengel used to save Ford for big games. So Ford didn't get as many games in the rotation. So not only did Ford not get as many opportunities, when he did pitch he was pitching against the toughest opposition. That makes his win percentage even more remarkable.

Johnson might have more strikeouts but he still allowed runs. That doesn't do the team a lot of good. Whitey Ford would let batters get on first on second but not to home plate. Ford averaged 2.22 hits per game vs Johnson's 2.76

Ford's career ERA of 2.75 is way better than Johnson's 3.29

In a 16 year major league career, Ford posted an ERA under 3.00 in 11 of those seasons.

Ford's career 2.75 ERA is the 2nd lowest of starting pitchers in the live-ball era.

Ford was consistent throughout his career. Ford had a 1.64 ERA in 1967 (his final season). While Johnson posted a 4.32 ERA in his last 5 seasons.
Johnson's.

Whitey's raw ERA looks better until you take context into, well, context.

ERA+:

Johnson - 135
Ford - 133

I don't much care about winning % since it's a team stat and Ford pitched for loaded teams. I mean, his winning % went down from 65-67...

The "Casey held him back for big games" also doesn't hold much water to me. If anything, that's a negative against Ford. That's Stengel saying "yeah, this guy isn't durable enough to pitch regularly." The "he was saving Ford" argument also loses weight when you realize that Ford had multiple relief appearances almost every season until Houk came along.

Johnson pitched 1000 more innings than Ford, while simultaneously maintaining a higher ERA+. He led his league in ERA+ 6 times, Ford just once. Johnson also won 4 ERA titles to 2 for Ford. If you like WAR - I'm not exactly a fan - then Ford's BEST season would be Randy's EIGHTH best. Ford's postseason heroics are often cited but he had an ERA over 4.00 in over half (6 of 11) his postseasons. Randy was over 4.00 in 5 of his 11. Randy also had a lower FIP (3.19) than Ford (3.26), while leading the league 6 times to Ford's 1.

I honestly don't see much of a case for Ford over Johnson. Randy had a higher peak, pitched 1000 innings more, dominated more, and had a higher ERA+.

[howard38]

"If anything, that's a negative against Ford. That's Stengel saying "yeah, this guy isn't durable enough to pitch regularly."

This is a reach. Ford proved his durability as soon as the Yankees let Stengel go. In Ford's first & third seasons w/o Stengel as his manager he led the league in IP & over his last five seasons he led in total IP.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by howard38

"If anything, that's a negative against Ford. That's Stengel saying "yeah, this guy isn't durable enough to pitch regularly."

This is a reach. Ford proved his durability as soon as the Yankees let Stengel go. In Ford's first & third seasons w/o Stengel as his manager he led the league in IP & over his last five seasons he led in total IP.

If Stengel thought he could do it, he would have. Any other explanation is just a way of saying Stengel wasn't trying his best to win as many games as possible. "Ford is available but I'll go ahead and pitch this other guy who isn't as good".

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Tabe

If Stengel thought he could do it, he would have. Any other explanation is just a way of saying Stengel wasn't trying his best to win as many games as possible. "Ford is available but I'll go ahead and pitch this other guy who isn't as good".

I read it that Stengel had pitchers in the bullpen that could beat the easier opponents and didn't want to risk his best pitcher.

I mean, why play Ford against Kansas City when Bob Turley could do the job against the worst team in baseball at the time

[G1911]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I read it that Stengel had pitchers in the bullpen that could beat the easier opponents and didn't want to risk his best pitcher.

I mean, why play Ford against Kansas City when Bob Turley could do the job against the worst team in baseball at the time

I've read this in many books, including by teammates. The claim is frequently made in the literature on the 50's Yankees. After taking a look at the statistics and his innings by opponent, lifetime and during the individual systems in the mid-late 50's when Ford was established, and Stengel was the manager, the claim is not really true.

He DID start inordinately against the White Sox, but there's not much else in the individual team matchups to support this.

He pitched 1,707 innings against teams greater than .500, 1,463 against teams under. The discrepancy actually mostly comes from the 60's, after Stengel had been fired. He did pitch better against successful teams than poor ones, 2.68 against winnings clubs, 2.83 against.

The specific claim, that Stengel's saved Ford to face the good teams, checks out as generally false (I would be shocked if this did not occasionally happen, as it does with many pitchers), BUT this does reflect well on Ford. He did pitch a bit more against good teams than bad, and, unusually, he performed better against winning teams over his career than bad ones.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I read it that Stengel had pitchers in the bullpen that could beat the easier opponents and didn't want to risk his best pitcher.

I mean, why play Ford against Kansas City when Bob Turley could do the job against the worst team in baseball at the time

Well, in 1958, for example, Ford had 5 starts against KC out of only 29 all year. In 1959, he had 4 starts out of 29. In other words, exactly the number you'd expect him to have when facing 7 different opponents all season. Other years, he had less. A review of his career starts against various opponents shows the quantity to be pretty bunched together other than the White Sox (his most-frequent opponent).

[howard38]

Originally Posted by Tabe

If Stengel thought he could do it, he would have. Any other explanation is just a way of saying Stengel wasn't trying his best to win as many games as possible. "Ford is available but I'll go ahead and pitch this other guy who isn't as good".

I'm sure Stengel was trying his best to win but that doesn't mean he was always right.