1989 Fleer Randy Johnson #381 Marlboro Errors - 30 Years Later

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Sure, Hatorade. I've always been fascinated with this Marlboro version since I was a kid and my cousin pointed it out to me. Once I came back into the hobby I've focused on examples with the most clarity of the sign (i.e., being able to clearly see each letter in the word Marlboro and the cowboy). I've found clearness to be a continuous variable though (without completely defined levels). I've never tried to draw it out but this has sort of been my way of thinking about clarity and the tint versions. Of course it gets trickier when you have green tint over red scribbling, etc. I'm not claiming this rough sketch is entirely accurate but I hope to try to add to it.

My pipe dream would be to flesh this out to categorize all of the versions and then get population counts (at least for PSA graded cards) for all of the different versions. Assuming we put some numeric clarity scale on the Y-axis, it would be great to be able to note that a card was G1 (i.e., "clearest" green tint) or R3_4 (i.e., looks like it falls between clarity 3 and 4 for a red tint version) and others would know exactly which version you are talking about. Just a few random thoughts. Steve

You're really on the right track with this. One hint I can suggest is that there are at least two separate, but very similar red tint lineages. I've attached a couple images of 1 of the darker versions of each of these 2 red attempts, which would be at the bottom of each of the two red columns on your chart. I’ve also included another image of the dark blue I have for the bottom of the blue column.

[Statfreak101]

Was just thinking of this while watching the Twins/Sox game...

Has anyone ever seen a cello or rack showing a Johnson Marlboro version on top?

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by Statfreak101

Was just thinking of this while watching the Twins/Sox game...

Has anyone ever seen a cello or rack showing a Johnson Marlboro version on top?

Here are the 2 cellos we’ve come across with an RJ error on the front. I’m assuming PSA will label them Completely Blacked Out whenever we send them in to get authenticated.

[jp1216]

PSA won't authenticate 1989 Fleer cellos anymore. The newer holders are too tight for those packs - FYI.

(Note: I now am seeing some of these 'new' PSA holders on eBay - so maybe they 'fit' now. )

[jacksoncoupage]

I’ve been closely following the surge in 1989 Fleer case breaking over the last several months and a few things have become very clear RE: the Randy Johnson card:

1. All correction types/methods took place by January 1st. No 1989 dated case has turned out a non-full blacked out version.

2. Several types of corrections will come from the same case. This is very interesting to me as I previously had assumed that since Fleer had used two printing facilities for this product, that was the cause for the color tints.

But now I am convinced that Fleer had multiple presses running (perhaps at both plants) and each press had a different type of correction to the plate; for example: say they had four presses going, one would have a green mask over the sign, one a red box, etc etc. This is the only way I can explain the various versions coming out of specific day dated cases.

[Athos01]

You are absolutely right Dylan, these Johnson variations were corrected long before the Ripkens which were initially corrected around the Jan 17 time frame. I tend to think all Johnson varieties were corrected before 1989, and I opened many boxes and cases with different varieties in them, including red and green tints, box versions, etc. This also occurred with the Ripkens at times, you could get different variations in the same box/case.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by Statfreak101

Was just thinking of this while watching the Twins/Sox game...

Has anyone ever seen a cello or rack showing a Johnson Marlboro version on top?

PSA graded 2 of our 3 cello packs and actually included the "Ad Partially Obscured" label on the flip.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

PSA graded 2 of our 3 cello packs and actually included the "Ad Partially Obscure" label on the flip.

Awesome!

[jacksoncoupage]

I don't think I've broken 1989 Fleer since 2009-2010 but this sunday at the Rose Bowl flea, I bought 9 loose packs (and a bunch of small, 80's boxed/grocery/oddball type sets) and pulled a green tint Randy after first pulling a Ripken FF. Probably haven't pulled either of those cards from a pack myself since 2004-05. Pretty incredible odds.

[Statfreak101]

Fantastic stuff, man. I've opened a lot of this stuff, and it never gets old...the feeling of either knowing you're going to pull one of these, or have good odds of doing so is still awesome.

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

I don't think I've broken 1989 Fleer since 2009-2010 but this sunday at the Rose Bowl flea, I bought 9 loose packs (and a bunch of small, 80's boxed/grocery/oddball type sets) and pulled a green tint Randy after first pulling a Ripken FF. Probably haven't pulled either of those cards from a pack myself since 2004-05. Pretty incredible odds.

Nice pull, Dylan. I've had terrible luck pulling nice ones recently. Great mini Goodens too!

[ALR-bishop]

Hernandez is a neat variant card as well

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

You're really on the right track with this. One hint I can suggest is that there are at least two separate, but very similar red tint lineages. I've attached a couple images of 1 of the darker versions of each of these 2 red attempts, which would be at the bottom of each of the two red columns on your chart. I’ve also included another image of the dark blue I have for the bottom of the blue column.

Thanks! You have many many more of the versions than I do! I wonder if it makes sense to edit the sketch, putting the clearest version on the very top (since it is highest on the clarity scale) and the completely blacked out version on the very bottom (since it is lowest on the clarity scale). All of the other versions fall between these two extremes (so those pictures would be in the middle). Then, I could replace the "no tint" label with "light red tint" (so the four columns across the x-axis would be "light red tint", "blue tint", "green tint", and "dark red tint")?

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by steve5838

Thanks! You have many many more of the versions than I do! I wonder if it makes sense to edit the sketch, putting the clearest version on the very top (since it is highest on the clarity scale) and the completely blacked out version on the very bottom (since it is lowest on the clarity scale). All of the other versions fall between these two extremes (so those pictures would be in the middle). Then, I could replace the "no tint" label with "light red tint" (so the four columns across the x-axis would be "light red tint", "blue tint", "green tint", and "dark red tint")?

You would remove the clear tint column. The top card from that column would be moved to the top of the blue column. That card and Kevin's card would be the two known copies in the clear range of the blue run and go at the top of the column. It would be very interesting to see the two card together, it's likely there is a slight discrepancy in the amount of blue tint between the two clear blue cards. Then there are 4 or 5 known mid-blue copies that would follow those two in the column and then the 1 known copy of the blue box at the bottom. That makes up all the known blue cards and highlights how rare the clear/blue run is. There are likely to be a few more blue cards that pop up and could be placed into their appropriate positions in the blue column. To add the grading element you suggested. The top grade for a clear version is tied at PSA 9, mid-blue 2 PSA 9's and of the top blue box version is currently an PSA 8.

It looks like the next two cards remaining from the clear column would be moved to the top of the current red column. The last remaining image in the old clear column would be moved to the top to start a red 2 column. You would also add 2 columns for each fish version and 1 for the negatives that we've talked about earlier. Then things get pretty interesting for the greens. There appears to me to be a minimum of 4 or 5 different green runs so it gets a little tougher for them. Fortunately, with some of the characteristic feature I mentioned earlier you can do some separating within the different versions.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

You would remove the clear tint column. The top card from that column would be moved to the top of the blue column. That card and Kevin's card would be the two known copies in the clear range of the blue run and go at the top of the column. It would be very interesting to see the two card together, it's likely there is a slight discrepancy in the amount of blue tint between the two clear blue cards. Then there are 4 or 5 known mid-blue copies that would follow those two in the column and then the 1 known copy of the blue box at the bottom. That makes up all the known blue cards and highlights how rare the clear/blue run is. There are likely to be a few more blue cards that pop up and could be placed into their appropriate positions in the blue column. To add the grading element you suggested. The top grade for a clear version is tied at PSA 9, mid-blue 2 PSA 9's and of the top blue box version is currently an PSA 8.

It looks like the next two cards remaining from the clear column would be moved to the top of the current red column. The last remaining image in the old clear column would be moved to the top to start a red 2 column. You would also add 2 columns for each fish version and 1 for the negatives that we've talked about earlier. Then things get pretty interesting for the greens. There appears to me to be a minimum of 4 or 5 different green runs so it gets a little tougher for them. Fortunately, with some of the characteristic feature I mentioned earlier you can do some separating within the different versions.

Why would you put the clearest version in the blue group? That scan shows less red than I have seen in other scans of the 2 known clearest versions. To me it would be the the lightest red tint.

I also have one of the blue box cards. Pretty sure I have posted a pic of it.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Why would you put the clearest version in the blue group? That scan shows less red than I have seen in other scans of the 2 known clearest versions. To me it would be the the lightest red tint.

I also have one of the blue box cards. Pretty sure I have posted a pic of it.

That's a great question Ben. I believe your blue card is the one you posted about in this thread, correct?

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218755

With your card you can read the lettering in Marlboro pretty well in the scan despite the amount of tinting over the ad. Your card was one of the 4 or 5 that will fall in the mid-blue level on Steve's chart. With the blue box version I referenced you are unable to view the Marlboro lettering in the scan of the card and appears very much like some other "box" versions, but unlike those other versions with the blue box card in hand, you can still read the letters in Marlboro. The blue box version is the 3rd image on post #41.

To follow up with your question, the lightest known red versions are the cards like the bottom three cards from the none column. As you mentioned, the "clear" card that I suggested be moved to top of the blue column has very little to no red tinting on the card and as the card does gain tinting over the ad its blue tinting and not red so it gets progressively bluer and not more red with additional tint. With the way Fleer produced the cards the clear versions go from clear to mid-blue to blue box and why I suggest that the top card in the none column and Kevin's card go atop the future blue column. This is also why I suggested the other cards in the none column be moved to the top of 2 future red columns. As these 2 red run of cards gain more tint they become darker red and become so much darker red they transition to the two other cards I included in post #41.

I also suggested that he add two columns to his chart for the fish versions. If you look at the 2 different albums of the versions of the fish on my Flickr page you'll notice that the cards are setup in similar fashion to what Steve is suggesting in his chart. The top cards have very little tinting and the cards at the bottom have so much tinting that they transition into "box" versions. The cards transitioning is not a coincidence, but how Fleer covered the error.

By making some changes to his chart I think we can highlight the different versions and how each version transitions in a lineage from light to darker. I don't have it 100% figured out at this point, but if I'm wrong I think it will come out pretty quick by trying to develop the chart further. If I'm right filling in the gaps will be fun and give us a better understanding of the errors.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Hatorade

That's a great question Ben. I believe your blue card is the one you posted about in this thread, correct?

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218755

With your card you can read the lettering in Marlboro pretty well in the scan despite the amount of tinting over the ad. Your card was one of the 4 or 5 that will fall in the mid-blue level on Steve's chart. With the blue box version I referenced you are unable to view the Marlboro lettering in the scan of the card and appears very much like some other "box" versions, but unlike those other versions with the blue box card in hand, you can still read the letters in Marlboro. The blue box version is the 3rd image on post #41.

To follow up with your question, the lightest known red versions are the cards like the bottom three cards from the none column. As you mentioned, the "clear" card that I suggested be moved to top of the blue column has very little to no red tinting on the card and as the card does gain tinting over the ad its blue tinting and not red so it gets progressively bluer and not more red with additional tint. With the way Fleer produced the cards the clear versions go from clear to mid-blue to blue box and why I suggest that the top card in the none column and Kevin's card go atop the future blue column. This is also why I suggested the other cards in the none column be moved to the top of 2 future red columns. As these 2 red run of cards gain more tint they become darker red and become so much darker red they transition to the two other cards I included in post #41.

I also suggested that he add two columns to his chart for the fish versions. If you look at the 2 different albums of the versions of the fish on my Flickr page you'll notice that the cards are setup in similar fashion to what Steve is suggesting in his chart. The top cards have very little tinting and the cards at the bottom have so much tinting that they transition into "box" versions. The cards transitioning is not a coincidence, but how Fleer covered the error.

By making some changes to his chart I think we can highlight the different versions and how each version transitions in a lineage from light to darker. I don't have it 100% figured out at this point, but if I'm wrong I think it will come out pretty quick by trying to develop the chart further. If I'm right filling in the gaps will be fun and give us a better understanding of the errors.

No, I have the box version like the one you posted. I will try and find it but it is exactly like the box one you posted. I don't know who owns the one in the link now. I traded it and it has been sold at least once since then.

It is great what you guys are doing. Back when I was hoarding them I always wanted to take pics and make a list for all the different versions.

EDIT: Added pic it is kinda hard t see in the pic but it definitely looks like yours in hand.

[Hatorade]

Originally Posted by bnorth

No, I have the box version like the one you posted. I will try and find it but it is exactly like the box one you posted. I don't know who owns the one in the link now. I traded it and it has been sold at least once since then.

It is great what you guys are doing. Back when I was hoarding them I always wanted to take pics and make a list for all the different versions.

EDIT: Added pic it is kinda hard t see in the pic but it definitely looks like yours in hand.

The card you posted appears to me to be a negative version and not a blue box. The card you posted will have the red squiggle I mentioned in post 42 and no cards from the blue lineage have this squiggle. Would you confirm with a larger image of the front of your card?

[steve5838]

Originally Posted by bnorth

No, I have the box version like the one you posted. I will try and find it but it is exactly like the box one you posted. I don't know who owns the one in the link now. I traded it and it has been sold at least once since then.

It is great what you guys are doing. Back when I was hoarding them I always wanted to take pics and make a list for all the different versions.

EDIT: Added pic it is kinda hard t see in the pic but it definitely looks like yours in hand.

Ben, I believe I own the blue one you had. I bought it from David on this board. I'm pretty sure this is the one due to the small scratch over the Marlboro man. I was lucky enough to grab a second blue one on EBay earlier this year. I know Kevin also has one of the blue ones. Outside of these and the ones on Hatorade's site I haven't seen others (but always on the lookout in case more come out of the woodwork).

I'm still hoping to add to my above sketch but have been holding off for some cards to get back from PSA grading so I can scan them. If possible I want to use the same scanner and same settings so I can better differentiate the versions (as opposed to differences in scanner or photo settings).