Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is 100% exactly why park affects in modern statistics are a thing! You are ignoring the other posts with Koufax's ERA on the road in all years but 1966. How about 1964? In most seasons after his alleged change, he continued to perform similarly on the road as he had the two seasons before. We are back at the beginning because A) you keep using the same points that are not supported by verifiable facts B) keep using these points to argue against an allegation that has not been made by anyone in this thread, even though you keep insisting they have.

And I've never said that Chavez didn't help Koufax. But you ignore that he became a better pitcher outside of that. And none of his teammates achieved what he did at home.

People are arguing that Koufax's greatness was due largely to external factors, saying he had a great run soley because of those factors, and that he was just so-so on the road. His road E.R.A.'s were better than in the early part of his career. And 1.96 his last year.

[Bram99]

my gosh the thread is dominated by arguments for Koufax. Lefty Grove was the greatest. Then Spahn. And to the poster who brought up park conditions relative to Mantle and Ruth, the Mick hit over 160 as a righty, and many more to center and left field. The Babe hit more on the road than at home. So never try to besmirch a Yankee to support an argument for a Dodger!

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Bram99

my gosh the thread is dominated by arguments for Koufax. Lefty Grove was the greatest. Then Spahn. And to the poster who brought up park conditions relative to Mantle and Ruth, the Mick hit over 160 as a righty, and many more to center and left field. The Babe hit more on the road than at home. So never try to besmirch a Yankee to support an argument for a Dodger!

Ha ha, I'm actually a Yankee fan! I wouldn't dream of besmirching them! I was just kidding around! I didn't crunch those numbers, lol.

At any rate, I still say Koufax was a great pitcher, whose own personal growth was a major reason he was one. And all of these other pitchers are great too!!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Bram99

The Babe hit more on the road than at home.

So did Mickey!

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by jgannon

And I've never said that Chavez didn't help Koufax. But you ignore that he became a better pitcher outside of that. And none of his teammates achieved what he did at home.

People are arguing that Koufax's greatness was due largely to external factors, saying he had a great run soley because of those factors, and that he was just so-so on the road. His road E.R.A.'s were better than in the early part of his career. And 1.96 his last year.

For ANYONE trying to minimize Koufax’s fantastic dominance over a 4/5 year period due to compiling a sensational W/L record vs. weak teams such as the Mets, etc, I totally beg to differ. Virtually all great pitchers have elevated their career statistics by throttling weaker opposition. Nature of the beast and it makes perfect sense. BTW, maybe we should look at the powerful 1963 Yankees....Koufax turned their bats into complete sawdust in the 2 games he won by embarrassing their hitters including a then record setting 15 strikeout performance!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jgannon

And I've never said that Chavez didn't help Koufax. But you ignore that he became a better pitcher outside of that. And none of his teammates achieved what he did at home.

People are arguing that Koufax's greatness was due largely to external factors, saying he had a great run soley because of those factors, and that he was just so-so on the road. His road E.R.A.'s were better than in the early part of his career. And 1.96 his last year.

Again, ignoring every other year, and again, the evidence does not support the conclusion that when the strike zone was expanded, he moved into a pitcher friendly home park and his road stats stayed flat, he learned some new mechanic and that was responsible for the change instead.

Nobody is arguing his teammates were better, as discussed before, so that is irrelevant to the question of the thread.

The math shows his home road splits are extremely unusual with one of the most extreme home park heavy splits of all baseball history. There is no reason to think that so many favorable factors aligning are not the primary cause of his success only when circumstances heavily favored him. It was not until Expansion, a heavy pitcher park and an expanded strike zone he improved at home. The argument this is random chance and not the cause is disproven by the huge gap in his splits.

A logical, fact-based or statistical case for Koufax that does not pretend inconvenient facts simply do not exist would be interesting to undertake.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, ignoring every other year, and again, the evidence does not support the conclusion that when the strike zone was expanded, he moved into a pitcher friendly home park and his road stats stayed flat, he learned some new mechanic and that was responsible for the change instead.

Nobody is arguing his teammates were better, as discussed before, so that is irrelevant to the question of the thread.

The math shows his home road splits are extremely unusual with one of the most extreme home park heavy splits of all baseball history. There is no reason to think that so many favorable factors aligning are not the primary cause of his success only when circumstances heavily favored him. It was not until Expansion, a heavy pitcher park and an expanded strike zone he improved at home. The argument this is random chance and not the cause is disproven by the huge gap in his splits.

A logical, fact-based or statistical case for Koufax that does not pretend inconvenient facts simply do not exist would be interesting to undertake.

Below, is something I wrote in a post on page 3 after posting Koufax's stats. I think it's important to consider. Again, I am not saying that Chavez wasn't a factor. My argument is that Koufax began to improve prior to the move to Chavez, and if he hadn't, we wouldn't be discussing him right now.

What I said on page 3:

If your argument is that Chavez Ravine, largely created the phenomenon that was Sandy Koufax, look at his away E.R.A's. You'll notice that from 1955 - 1959, they were really quite high. He brought things down a bit in 1960, but obviously with an 8-13 Won/Loss Record, and an overall 3.91 E.R.A. for the year, it wasn't exactly a banner year.

Then look at 1961, which was a year before Koufax and the Dodgers played at Chavez. Koufax' away E.R.A. is down below 3.00 for the first time, at 2.77. His Won/Loss Record goes up to 18-13.

Interestingly, in the spring of that year, catcher Norm Sherry spoke with Koufax about his control. In an interview, he said:

'It was 1961 in Orlando, where we went to play the Twins in an exhibition game. We’d talked on the plane going over there, and he said, “I want to work on my change-up and my curveball.” We went with a very minimal squad because one of our pitchers missed the plane. Gil Hodges went as our manager. [Koufax] couldn’t throw a strike, and he ended up walking the first three guys. I went to the mound and said, “Sandy, we don’t have many guys here; we’re going to be here a long day. Why don’t you take something off the ball and just put it in there? Don’t try to throw it so hard. Just put it in there and let them hit it.”'

''I went back behind the plate. Good God! He tried to ease up, and he was throwing harder than when he tried to. We came off the field, and I said, “Sandy, I don’t know if you realize it, but you just now threw harder than when you were trying to.” What he did was that he got his rhythm better and the ball jumped out of his hand and exploded at the plate. He struck out the side. It made sense to him that when you try to overdo something, you do less. Just like guys who swing so hard, they can’t hit the ball. He got really good.'


Koufax himself said, 'I became a good pitcher when I stopped trying to make them miss the ball and started trying to make them hit it.'

Now if you look at his record going forward, the next year, yes, the Dodgers moved to Chavez, and his record improved. But his away record improved also. The 3.53 E.R.A he posted on the road in 1962, is misleading. His last legitimate start was on July 12th where he pitched 7 innings beating the Mets 1-0. However, by this point, the pain in his pitching due to a crushed artery in his left palm, put him on the disabled list after a one-inning outing at Crosley Field on July 17th, a game in which he was tagged for the loss, and was credited with an 18.00 E.R.A.

He attempted to pitch again in September and October, getting into four games. Three out of those four were on the road. His E.R.A for the month of September was 8.22 and for October, ws 27.00. He only pitched a total of 8.2 innings in September and October. And if you add the inning he pitched on July 17th, that's a total of 9.2 innings. Four out of five of those games were on the road. If you eliminate the E.R.A.'s from those games, his away E.R.A. goes down significantly. It would be interesting to calculate that. Maybe we could do that in a bit.

Then you go on the 1963 -1966 run. And we all know what Koufax did there. His E.R.A.'s on the road respectively are 2.31, 2.93, 2.72, 1.96.'

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Koufax's E.R.A. improved on the road, as compared to the early part of his career. The downward trend began before the expansion of the strike zone and before the move to Chavez.

We're not disagreeing on there being outside factors that coincided with Koufax's great run. We're just disagreeing on your saying that those factors were the only thing that made the pitcher. I say, without the change Koufax made in his approach to pitching, he would not have made his push to greatness.

And I think there are other factors beyond the numbers that factor into greatness. Koufax pitched through pain much of the time during the height of his career, pitching complete games. Add to this, his rising to the moment in the 1963 and 1965 World Series.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Below, is something I wrote in a post on page 3 after posting Koufax's stats. I think it's important to consider. Again, I am not saying that Chavez wasn't a factor. My argument is that Koufax began to improve prior to the move to Chavez, and if he hadn't, we wouldn't be discussing him right now.

What I said on page 3:

If your argument is that Chavez Ravine, largely created the phenomenon that was Sandy Koufax, look at his away E.R.A's. You'll notice that from 1955 - 1959, they were really quite high. He brought things down a bit in 1960, but obviously with an 8-13 Won/Loss Record, and an overall 3.91 E.R.A. for the year, it wasn't exactly a banner year.

Then look at 1961, which was a year before Koufax and the Dodgers played at Chavez. Koufax' away E.R.A. is down below 3.00 for the first time, at 2.77. His Won/Loss Record goes up to 18-13.

Interestingly, in the spring of that year, catcher Norm Sherry spoke with Koufax about his control. In an interview, he said:

'It was 1961 in Orlando, where we went to play the Twins in an exhibition game. We’d talked on the plane going over there, and he said, “I want to work on my change-up and my curveball.” We went with a very minimal squad because one of our pitchers missed the plane. Gil Hodges went as our manager. [Koufax] couldn’t throw a strike, and he ended up walking the first three guys. I went to the mound and said, “Sandy, we don’t have many guys here; we’re going to be here a long day. Why don’t you take something off the ball and just put it in there? Don’t try to throw it so hard. Just put it in there and let them hit it.”'

''I went back behind the plate. Good God! He tried to ease up, and he was throwing harder than when he tried to. We came off the field, and I said, “Sandy, I don’t know if you realize it, but you just now threw harder than when you were trying to.” What he did was that he got his rhythm better and the ball jumped out of his hand and exploded at the plate. He struck out the side. It made sense to him that when you try to overdo something, you do less. Just like guys who swing so hard, they can’t hit the ball. He got really good.'


Koufax himself said, 'I became a good pitcher when I stopped trying to make them miss the ball and started trying to make them hit it.'

Now if you look at his record going forward, the next year, yes, the Dodgers moved to Chavez, and his record improved. But his away record improved also. The 3.53 E.R.A he posted on the road in 1962, is misleading. His last legitimate start was on July 12th where he pitched 7 innings beating the Mets 1-0. However, by this point, the pain in his pitching due to a crushed artery in his left palm, put him on the disabled list after a one-inning outing at Crosley Field on July 17th, a game in which he was tagged for the loss, and was credited with an 18.00 E.R.A.

He attempted to pitch again in September and October, getting into four games. Three out of those four were on the road. His E.R.A for the month of September was 8.22 and for October, ws 27.00. He only pitched a total of 8.2 innings in September and October. And if you add the inning he pitched on July 17th, that's a total of 9.2 innings. Four out of five of those games were on the road. If you eliminate the E.R.A.'s from those games, his away E.R.A. goes down significantly. It would be interesting to calculate that. Maybe we could do that in a bit.

Then you go on the 1963 -1966 run. And we all know what Koufax did there. His E.R.A.'s on the road respectively are 2.31, 2.93, 2.72, 1.96.'

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Koufax's E.R.A. improved on the road, as compared to the early part of his career. The downward trend began before the expansion of the strike zone and before the move to Chavez.

We're not disagreeing on there being outside factors that coincided with Koufax's great run. We're just disagreeing on your saying that those factors were the only thing that made the pitcher. I say, without the change Koufax made in his approach to pitching, he would not have made his push to greatness.

And I think there are other factors beyond the numbers that factor into greatness. Koufax pitched through pain much of the time during the height of his career, pitching complete games. Add to this, his rising to the moment in the 1963 and 1965 World Series.

The above was addressed several pages ago with full year by year breakdowns. The numbers do not support that Sandy was such a legend on the road. His ERA scaled down as the leagues did when he wasn’t pitching in Chavez. It was very good in 1966, but you have to ignore the other years. Again, no amount of mythologizing nostalgia is going to overcome verifiable facts for those looking for a logical case.

If his 1962 away ERA is “misleading” due to injury, then so are his home ERA’s. Or was he injured only for road games and a single inning in which he gave up 2 runs (based on your 18 ERA in a single inning outing statement) solely responsible? How could he possibly have such a gap off this single performance amidst a year he pitched 182 innings? This makes no sense. It obviously makes no sense.

How about a couple years later when his road ERA is 300% of his home ERA? I guess the huge, abnormal gap in his splits and for all the other Dodger pitches is just random chance or the key must still be this change that does not align with the figures.

By this point, it seems clear that no argument based in math and verifiable fact will be made for Koufax, as all there is myth making and denying verifiable facts. If there is such a case for Koufax rooted in facts and not myth, it will not be made.

[btcarfagno]

To summarize:

"Road Koufax" was the best pitcher in baseball twice (1963 and 1966) and he was also either best or (more likely) second best one year (1965). "Road Koufax" doesn't sniff the top 20 in any other year. "Road Koufax" had gaudy strikeout numbers for the most part, although 1962 (196) and 1964 (198) are a bit pedestrian.

The real Sandy Koufax did have four World Series rings. One of which (1955) he did little to earn. One of which (1959) he was a back of the rotation starter/reliever and two of which he was the ace of the staff and series MVP. In his 7 career World Series starts he put up gaudy numbers even with a pedestrian record of 4-3.

Knowing that the above player had such a short career, is he a Hall Of Famer? If you use the Kirby Puckett "what could have been had he not gotten hurt" method then absolutely yes. But is the above player the GREATEST left handed pitcher of all time?

The thought is laughable.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

To summarize:

"Road Koufax" was the best pitcher in baseball twice (1963 and 1966) and he was also either best or (more likely) second best one year (1965). "Road Koufax" doesn't sniff the top 20 in any other year. "Road Koufax" had gaudy strikeout numbers for the most part, although 1962 (196) and 1964 (198) are a bit pedestrian.

The real Sandy Koufax did have four World Series rings. One of which (1955) he did little to earn. One of which (1959) he was a back of the rotation starter/reliever and two of which he was the ace of the staff and series MVP. In his 7 career World Series starts he put up gaudy numbers even with a pedestrian record of 4-3.

Knowing that the above player had such a short career, is he a Hall Of Famer? If you use the Kirby Puckett "what could have been had he not gotten hurt" method then absolutely yes. But is the above player the GREATEST left handed pitcher of all time?

The thought is laughable.

What is laughable is to think he is not a hofer. we went from an opinion that he was the best left hander to does he belong in the Hall of Fame.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by cammb

What is laughable is to think he is not a hofer. we went from an opinion that he was the best left hander to does he belong in the Hall of Fame.

"road Koufax" is barely a Hall Of Famer. Chavez Ravine aided Koufax is a legend. Try to keep up.