Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

Jim65 · #1 07-19-2020, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammb

Could it be that the pitching was superior? I can�t believe all the naysayers out there. Koufax was the most dominant pitcher of his time. His election to hall At such an early age proves that.

He was elected at an early age is because he retired young and was elected in his first year of eligibility.

cammb · #2 07-19-2020, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

He was elected at an early age is because he retired young and was elected in his first year of eligibility.

You are proving my point. If all you complain about is longevity why did the HOF committee elect him on first year of eligibility. There are a lot of players out there with several great seasons on their resume and are still waiting. The man was getting better every year until his injury. They recognized it, it's a shame a lot of you guys don't.

Jim65 · #3 07-19-2020, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cammb

You are proving my point. If all you complain about is longevity why did the HOF committee elect him on first year of eligibility. There are a lot of players out there with several great seasons on their resume and are still waiting. The man was getting better every year until his injury. They recognized it, it's a shame a lot of you guys don't.

Koufax career is very unique in the way it ended. The 4 years of dominance were still very fresh in voters minds when he was elected in his first year. If you flip his career and put those 4 dominant years at the beginning and his bad years at the end, he doesn't sniff the HOF and is the pitchers version of Don Mattingly.

Mark17 · #4 07-19-2020, 11:21 PM

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/lefty-grove/

Lefty Grove may have been baseball�s greatest all-time pitcher. He was certainly its most dominant. No one matched his nine ERA titles, and his .680 winning percentage (300-141) is the highest among 300 game winners (eighth best overall). After winning 111 games in a minor-league career that delayed his major-league debut until he was 25, Grove led the American League in strikeouts his first seven years, pitched effectively in hitters� parks (Shibe Park, Fenway Park) and starred in three World Series....

Moreover, Grove routinely struck out between 10 and 14 major leaguers in exhibition games (they may have been reluctant to dig in against him), told Babe Ruth �I�m not afraid of you,� and made good his boast by whiffing the Bambino in nine of 11 exhibition at-bats.

Grove was also elected to the HOF his first year of eligibility (unlike Spahn.)

timn1 · #5 07-20-2020, 12:50 AM

No lefthander competes seriously with Grove.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/lefty-grove/

Lefty Grove may have been baseball�s greatest all-time pitcher. He was certainly its most dominant. No one matched his nine ERA titles, and his .680 winning percentage (300-141) is the highest among 300 game winners (eighth best overall). After winning 111 games in a minor-league career that delayed his major-league debut until he was 25, Grove led the American League in strikeouts his first seven years, pitched effectively in hitters� parks (Shibe Park, Fenway Park) and starred in three World Series....

Moreover, Grove routinely struck out between 10 and 14 major leaguers in exhibition games (they may have been reluctant to dig in against him), told Babe Ruth �I�m not afraid of you,� and made good his boast by whiffing the Bambino in nine of 11 exhibition at-bats.

Grove was also elected to the HOF his first year of eligibility (unlike Spahn.)

cardsagain74 · #6 07-20-2020, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

Koufax career is very unique in the way it ended. The 4 years of dominance were still very fresh in voters minds when he was elected in his first year. If you flip his career and put those 4 dominant years at the beginning and his bad years at the end, he doesn't sniff the HOF and is the pitchers version of Don Mattingly.

Mattingly's legacy may be a bigger testament to Yankee lore than any of his legendary predecessors there (which is obviously saying something).

A very good lefty line-drive .300 hitter with gap pop and a shortened career. Whose splits show that Yankee Stadium turned plenty of doubles into short porch homers (he likely wouldn't reached 200 lifetime HRs playing anywhere else).

Sure he was one of the best few hitters in the league for a few years, but even then his numbers didn't dominate anywhere near like Koufax's prime did. The fact that many people consider him an "almost" HOF guy, and that he got 28% of the vote at first, is pretty unreal.

Playing for the Yankees turned him from being Magglio Ordonez into one of the most memorable baseball names of a generation. When I get reincarnated into a top baseball prospect, I'm holding out for pinstripes

rats60 · #7 07-20-2020, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

Koufax career is very unique in the way it ended. The 4 years of dominance were still very fresh in voters minds when he was elected in his first year. If you flip his career and put those 4 dominant years at the beginning and his bad years at the end, he doesn't sniff the HOF and is the pitchers version of Don Mattingly.

I missed Don Mattingly winning 3 triple crowns, 2 WS MVPs, leading the league in most statistical categories several seasons etc. if Mattingly had been as good as Koufax for a 5-6 year peak, he would have been a first ballot Hofer too. Look at Black Ink, which is a player leading the league in statistical categories. Koufax in his short career has 78 which is almost double what a Hof pitcher has for a career. Mattingly only has 23 which is less than the average a Hof hitter. That is why he is still waiting for the HOF. He just wasn’t that dominant at his peak.

alaskapaul3 · #8 07-20-2020, 09:49 AM

Can we all at least agree that Ed Morris was the best 19th century lefty ? or is someone going Frank Killen or Matt Kilroy on us ?

rhettyeakley · #9 07-20-2020, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

I missed Don Mattingly winning 3 triple crowns, 2 WS MVPs, leading the league in most statistical categories several seasons etc. if Mattingly had been as good as Koufax for a 5-6 year peak, he would have been a first ballot Hofer too. Look at Black Ink, which is a player leading the league in statistical categories. Koufax in his short career has 78 which is almost double what a Hof pitcher has for a career. Mattingly only has 23 which is less than the average a Hof hitter. That is why he is still waiting for the HOF. He just wasn’t that dominant at his peak.

C’mon man, there is literally no quantifiable metric to suggest Koufax had the greatest left-handed pitching career. You know the pitching triple crown is far more common than the hitting triple crown (more than 2x as common). The Koufax people in this thread have relied on 2 things only... peak performance and anecdotal evidence. Sorry a pitcher that has the same WAR and almost identical innings pitched as Ron Guidry isn’t gonna get the nod.

tedzan · #10 07-20-2020, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

C�mon man, there is literally no quantifiable metric to suggest Koufax had the greatest left-handed pitching career. You know the pitching triple crown is far more common than the hitting triple crown (more than 2x as common). The Koufax people in this thread have relied on 2 things only... peak performance and anecdotal evidence. Sorry a pitcher that has the same WAR and almost identical innings pitched as Ron Guidry isn�t gonna get the nod.

Rhett

Thanks.......As a long time Yankees fan, I was thinking of bringing up Ron Guidry, but you did and you said it very succinctly.

I saw Koufax pitch (1955-1966) and I've always considered him one of the best Southpaws. And Guidry is in the same class.

Their career stats are very comparable....Guidry was somewhat more effective in World Series play:

Guidry....Games = 368, W-L = 170-91, ERA = 3.29, World Series W-L = 5-2....WAR = 47.8

Koufax....Games = 397, W-L = 165-87, ERA = 2.76, World Series W-L = 4-3....WAR = 48.9

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

CMIZ5290 · #11 07-20-2020, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Rhett

Thanks.......As a long time Yankees fan, I was thinking of bringing up Ron Guidry, but you did and you said it very succinctly.

I saw Koufax pitch (1955-1966) and I've always considered him one of the best Southpaws. And Guidry is in the same class.

Their career stats are very comparable....Guidry was somewhat more effective in World Series play:

Guidry....Games = 368, W-L = 170-91, ERA = 3.29, World Series W-L = 5-2....WAR = 47.8

Koufax....Games = 397, W-L = 165-87, ERA = 2.76, World Series W-L = 4-3....WAR = 48.9

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted- I do agree about Guidry being a great lefty. Wouldn't you agree that .60 in ERA difference is huge with that amount of work done by both? Also, can you elaborate on the strengths of the Dodgers line-up versus the Ynakees line-up during their careers? Thanks a lot....

maniac_73 · #12 07-20-2020, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim65

koufax career is very unique in the way it ended. The 4 years of dominance were still very fresh in voters minds when he was elected in his first year. If you flip his career and put those 4 dominant years at the beginning and his bad years at the end, he doesn't sniff the hof and is the pitchers version of don mattingly.

lol

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