Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[cammb]

I think his induction into the Hall of Fame (the youngest player ever to be inducted) says it all. The writers evidently ignored his first six years and judged him on his last five years. That was a tribute to his dominance

[Shoeless Moe]

No mention of Koufax being a pussy and hanging it up early?


And if you are picking Koufax for your one game, better make sure it doesn't fall on Yom Kippur.....or you better get the bullpen up.


The Big Unit all the way!

[Koufax32fan]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

No mention of Koufax being a pussy and hanging it up early?


And if you are picking Koufax for your one game, better make sure it doesn't fall on Yom Kippur.....or you better get the bullpen up.


The Big Unit all the way!

I really hope this was all typed in jest. Please say it is so.

You should read a good biography of Koufax. Jane Leavy's is a good start. Koufax was in so much pain - and his teammates could see it - that they were amazed he was able to keep pitching at all. This was before Tommy John surgery. He used so much capiscum that smelled so bad that other players wouldn't want to be around him when he applied it. (Capsicum is what gives peppers their heat.) His left arm was getting malformed from the arthritis. If Sandy was willing, I would wager anything that you would be the "pussy" if he pitched to you, today - and, he is 85 years old.

As for Yom Kippur, suffice it to say that Drysdale asked Alston if he didn't wish that he was Jewish too after his outing. Baseball is important, but not that important. Let's give Koufax credit for being true to himself.

[brian1961]

jgannon --- Great anecdote. Loved it!

Koufax32fan --- Thanks for reminding the uninformed about why Sandy Koufax retired following the '66 season. The increasing pain and what it took to get himself on the mound was frightening. He believed if he continued to pitch, his arm would become deformed or would not function at all. The Dodger's owner and management did not believe him, and treated him shamefully for years afterwards. --- Brian Powell

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by brian1961

jgannon --- Great anecdote. Loved it!

Thanks, Brian! Despite some of the silly Koufax detractors on this thread and someone who just "knows" that this is a false story, this story was published by an accomplished and best-selling author, who said that Reese wrote it. It was not hearsay, but something that she saw written by Reese.

And you are correct about Koufax wanting to get out of the game before risking permanent injury to his arm.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Koufax32fan

I really hope this was all typed in jest. Please say it is so.

You should read a good biography of Koufax. Jane Leavy's is a good start. Koufax was in so much pain - and his teammates could see it - that they were amazed he was able to keep pitching at all. This was before Tommy John surgery. He used so much capiscum that smelled so bad that other players wouldn't want to be around him when he applied it. (Capsicum is what gives peppers their heat.) His left arm was getting malformed from the arthritis. If Sandy was willing, I would wager anything that you would be the "pussy" if he pitched to you, today - and, he is 85 years old.

As for Yom Kippur, suffice it to say that Drysdale asked Alston if he didn't wish that he was Jewish too after his outing. Baseball is important, but not that important. Let's give Koufax credit for being true to himself.

The fastest Koufax threw was clocked at 93.2, I'd hardly fear that. The 60's had about 5-6 really good hitters in the WHOLE N.L. 60's was just the weakest baseball, other then the 40's, for pitchers and hitters.

And if your saying he could throw when he is 85 then he should have rested, rehabbed whatever and pitched when he was 32. Terrible mechanics.....could have adjusted, taken stress off the arm and continued on.......nope he quit......reminds me of Barry Sanders. Quitters club.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

The fastest Koufax threw was clocked at 93.2, I'd hardly fear that. The 60's had about 5-6 really good hitters in the WHOLE N.L. 60's was just the weakest baseball, other then the 40's, for pitchers and hitters.

And if your saying he could throw when he is 85 then he should have rested, rehabbed whatever and pitched when he was 32. Terrible mechanics.....could have adjusted, taken stress off the arm and continued on.......nope he quit......reminds me of Barry Sanders. Quitters club.

Spoken like a true jock sniffer

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

The fastest Koufax threw was clocked at 93.2, I'd hardly fear that. The 60's had about 5-6 really good hitters in the WHOLE N.L. 60's was just the weakest baseball, other then the 40's, for pitchers and hitters.

And if your saying he could throw when he is 85 then he should have rested, rehabbed whatever and pitched when he was 32. Terrible mechanics.....could have adjusted, taken stress off the arm and continued on.......nope he quit......reminds me of Barry Sanders. Quitters club.

I believe they clocked a pitch when it crossed the plate back then. It has slowed down quite a bit by then. By today's measurements he likely threw in the 97-98 area.

[Shoeless Moe]

Careers Ruth Cobb Aaron etc had can be discussed as GREATEST ever!!!!!

A 4 year run????? While tremendous.....hardly can be called greatest of all time.

If that's the case Bo Jackson was the Greatest Hitter of All Time. Eric Gagne was the Best reliever.


Please!


A great 4 years yes, but too many garbage years before that, period!

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I believe they clocked a pitch when it crossed the plate back then. It has slowed down quite a bit by then. By today's measurements he likely threw in the 97-98 area.

Yes, Koufax threw much faster than 93 MPH.....Thanks for that info Tom

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I believe they clocked a pitch when it crossed the plate back then. It has slowed down quite a bit by then. By today's measurements he likely threw in the 97-98 area.

They measured 10 feet in front of the plate. They over this a lot in detail in the book "High Heat". Even in the era of Nolan Ryan, who was clocked at 100.9, they were still 10 feet in front of the plate (by today's standard, that pitch would be *108.5*). I forget when that changed but it's part of the reason why there's a billion guys throwing 100* now.

(Link to book: https://smile.amazon.com/High-Heat-F...5141568&sr=8-3)

* - In 2006, when they made the World Series, they Detroit Tigers had something like 10 or 11 pitchers who could throw 95+. That includes old dudes like Kenny Rogers and Todd Jones (yes, those guys were really clocked at 95+ that year).

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

No mention of Koufax being a pussy and hanging it up early?


And if you are picking Koufax for your one game, better make sure it doesn't fall on Yom Kippur.....or you better get the bullpen up.


The Big Unit all the way!

delete, just not worth it.....

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

delete, just not worth it.....

I played semi-professional hacky sack for 10 years.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

I played semi-professional hacky sack for 10 years.

Wow, didnt know how qualified you were.

[Shoeless Moe]

Koufax to me is a left handed version of John Clarkson, and you never hear his name mentioned as the Greatest Righty of All Time.

Why?

He didn't have the longevity of Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson.

Need some longevity to be the BEST.

Best 4-5 year run probably, best ever.....NO!

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Koufax to me is a right handed John Clarkson, and you never hear his name mentioned as the Greatest Righty of All Time.

Why?

He didn't have the longevity of Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson.

Need some longevity to be the BEST.

Best 4-5 year run probably, best ever.....NO!

Paul, with that statement, you have just pissed in the Church social punch bowl..... WTF???? John Clarkson??

[Shoeless Moe]

What's wrong with Clarkson? HOFer, best pitcher of the 19th century by far.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Koufax to me is a left handed version of John Clarkson, and you never hear his name mentioned as the Greatest Righty of All Time.

Why?

He didn't have the longevity of Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson.

Need some longevity to be the BEST.

Best 4-5 year run probably, best ever.....NO!

Paul, for the record, I think Johnson and Matty are two of the best Ten pitchers of all time....Ironic isn't it? I put them ahead of Cy Young who had over 500 wins!!

[Shoeless Moe]

Right but Cy Young got the award named after him.....because of the wins.

Compare Clarkson to Young

Clarkson 12 years 328 wins
Young 22 years 511 wins

Had Clarkson pitched 10 more years he passes that 511, and the award is named after him.

But he didn't. Not even brought up amongst the greatest........all due to longevity.

At that brings us to Mr Koufax, tremendous pitcher no doubt, but the longevity kills him. Just like it did Clarkson in historic context. Sorry Koufax fans, face the facts.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Paul, for the record, I think Johnson and Matty are two of the best Ten pitchers of all time....Ironic isn't it? I put them ahead of Cy Young who had over 500 wins!!

And Kevin you help prove my point here, you immediately mention Johnson and Mathewson, but why didn't you mention Smokey Joe Wood?


Longevity.....He had a very similar run to what Koufax had, hell probably better......so you should have said Wood, but the reason you didn't is because the others are considered the best pitchers of their time.